I know this was discussed once on the site but the thread ended before an answer was posted. I have a 1989 C-34 in beautiful condition however it has a crack going vertical. Since the boat is a 89 it has stainless steel keel bolts that are in perfect condition (fresh water boat), as well as the keel stub not being wood. I'm not sure if the crack is typical for the 34's and is just on the outside or is something more serious. I have read on a few other sites that this is superficial and needs to be faired, as well as the rebedding the keel. I also read that lead will not typically crack.
Your thoughts?
Thank you,
PS - January 26 - The OP is no longer affiliated with this boat. He has removed his offer on it. He was not in any way associated with the removal of any parts from the boat. [Stu Jackson, forum administrator]
PPS - We have left this thread intact because of the valuable information and links it contains.
Going through same thing. Looks like water leaking from the bilge thru the stub bolts . can fair and appoxy seal the bolts so water can't get down ,looks like water is under the glass fairing . right way is to drop the keel down clean out between stub and keel and 5200 them tighten keel bolts ,when dry tourqe to spec. Involves yard lifting boat off keel for a day . why I'm paying to have done . caused by hard grounding or improper blocking should be booked front of keel.
If you normally have a dry bilge, then it is probably just cosmetic—water trapped under fairing. I would V-grind all cracks, then torque keel bolts, then fill exterior cracks with thickened epoxy, then fair, then apply epoxy primer, then bottom paint.
Pat
If that was my keel I wouldn't be happy with less than grinding away all (every inch of) the joint fairing to see what's good and what's good vs. bad. I started with a much smaller smile than yours and found about 1/3 the joint bedding (C-30) was punky (like wet gypsum drywall.) CTY bedded the lead to the keel buss using polyester mung which is hydrophilic (loves and absorbs water, and water turns it to dust, e.g. like hull blisters.)
You may be lucky and need just a V grind out and to 5200 the cleaned-out crack, but you can't tell the extent until the fairing is removed.
OldCat
I never used the yard (except to demast so the hull didn't turtle with the kell off.)
I added screw jacks to the corners of my cradle, blocked the keel in place with a 2x4 frame, and after cutting thru the joint, jacked the boat up just enough to clear the boots.
I made the frame so I could jack the keel sideways so I had clear room to work on the keel top and keel buss.
Then simply reversed the process to put er back together.
I have pics of the frame if you ever tackle this.
Pat- you are correct that your 1989-90 year boat does NOT have a wood sandwich in the bilge/keel joint. All glass and bedding compound. I would do some exploratory grinding along the crack and see where you are. The repair solution is "somewhere" between what I propose and Ken proposes.
Thank you so much with the helpful replies. I am new to this forum and not sure if there is a PM (private message) feature, if so I would like to share my email or phone so I can get some additional information or pics.
Thank you,
Pat
Quote from: Indootime on January 20, 2021, 08:09:23 PM
Thank you so much with the helpful replies. I am new to this forum and not sure if there is a PM (private message) feature, if so I would like to share my email or phone so I can get some additional information or pics.
Thank you,
Pat
Yes, there is a pm feature, just click on any other member's name.
But I encourage you to keep it all here. You noted the earlier thread ended. Why not keep this one going so everyone can benefit?
Quote from: Noah on January 20, 2021, 08:03:39 PM
The repair solution is "somewhere" between what I propose and Ken proposes.
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting a repair cuz I don't know the extent of how punky or the lateral/depth extent. The range could be from grind/5200 some of the joint, to the full Monty.
FWIW, when I started removing fairing I found punky joint existed well beyond the point of what I'd consider "good" fairing. Although I theoretically could have ground out only the punky joint, it wasn't practical because the punky areas extended the full width of the keel.
Getting rid of the mung wasn't a fun job, BTW.
There is a PM feature and some folks also list their email. Just click on the poster's name and it brings up a a window with links to all of their contact and profile info.
Quote from: KWKloeber on January 20, 2021, 08:38:50 PM
Quote from: Noah on January 20, 2021, 08:03:39 PM
The repair solution is "somewhere" between what I propose and Ken proposes.
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting a repair cuz I don't know the extent of how punky or the lateral/depth extent. The range could be from grind/5200 some of the joint, to the full Monty.
FWIW, when I started removing fairing I found punky joint existed well beyond the point of what I'd consider "good" fairing. Although I theoretically could have ground out only the punky joint, it wasn't practical because the punky areas extended the full width of the keel.
Getting rid of the mung wasn't a fun job, BTW.
I will certainly keep this going and be sure to post the outcome, I only asked about the PM feature so I could get some pics of repairs from people without over loading this thread.
Lots of ways to proceed depending on severity. The Catalina drawing attached, says "V-grind and fill with MatineTex or other compound...glassing over joint after is optional...". I suggest thickened epoxy or Gflex epoxy instead of MarineTex. However, if it turns out the entire joint is soft/compromised, then you may need to consider a more heroic approach.
Noah there's something amiss with that GIF - zero bytes, wouldn't open.
Here's my PDF version.
Picture the picture w/ 1/3 of the aft end of the keel having no mung bedding (~1/4" to ~3/8" thick) the full width (thickness) of the keel. YIKES!
Pat
[PS: The left sidebar has links to send the member a PM or send a direct email (for those who allow member-to-member contact.)]
Here are pics you asked for from that project - I just uploaded my entire folder to make it easy (on me.)
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Page_of_keel_and_bottom_job_pics
The frame for the keel - I built it so that I could keep the keel supported (from tipping forward) while I slid (hydraulic jacked) the keel sideways in increments -- like slide the bottom 4-5", tip the top plumb and block it; slide another bit, tip the top plumb and block it; repeat until it was to the other side of the frame/cradle.
Frame at the bow - ignore that - it had nothing to do w/ the keel rebed; I supported her so that after I entirely took down the bottom I could spray the barrier coats and VC-17 w/o having my screw jack/cradle pads in my way or jack stands up front.
I wouldn't even think of having the yard lift my hull -- the owner was a real jerk and owners could never rely on any sort of schedule. There'd be 4 or 5 waiting to splash in spring, and he'd just decide to jump on the tractor to cut grass. Plus he damaged another boat with my bow rail, damaged my boat, and dumped my grill overboard.
QuoteYour thoughts?
Pat,
My thoughts, you have a big "Catalina smile" with a vertical crack in the fairing. Probable cause, jack stands too tight. Especially the V-stand at the bow. I keep that one loose over winter. May need to retorque the keel nuts or at least check. Search this site and you will find a lot of information on what others have done. Try keywords like catalina smile, keel bolts, keel nuts, etc.
Hope that helps,
Jim
Received some additional information about the boat that would explain some of the cracking...GROUNDED HARD! Now I'm more worried about stringers that run perpendicular to the hull in the keel area. I took this project on as a chance because it is such a nice and well kept boat and I really want to give it a second chance. I will report interior damage if any and we can all go to plan-B.
Pat
With a hard grounding, I'd say keel removal and rebed is probably the minimal amount of work I'd consider. Once the keel is off, you'll know a lot more about what needs to be done.
As noted before, I was the previous owner and yes, hard grounding. There is cracking in the stringers aft potion of the keel area.
Ouch! That WILL change the repair calculation...from cosmetic to structural remediation. Definitely warrants some serious exploration. Good luck.
Pat : Hard Grounding is putting it mildly!! I'm afraid that the ONLY way to start that repair is to drop the keel, repair the cracked stringers, thoroughly inspect hull stub, stringers, all bolts & their entry into the keel hull stub. There is major structural damage. Repair and then reattach the keel!
I wouldn't even think of any other shortcut!!
My thoughts
Don't know (didn't check) to see if this 101 Topic is in the wiki bunch that Ken Kloeber posted on page one of this thread:
Rebedding a Keel Stub 101 The Catalina Smile with Pictures
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html
Noah's Catalina file is also valuable.
Stu
No these were just my pics that Pat asked me for.
-k
Pat,
I've never seen a vertical crack like that before, it's disturbing to say the least. If it was my boat I'd drop the keel and have a qualified surveyor do a through inspection before doing anything else. That will at least give you a plan of action and probably some piece of mind too.
Kevin is correct, but you don't need just any surveyor - you need a Structural Marine Engineer!
A thought
[quote author]
you almost need a Structural Marine Engineer!
[/quote]
I disagree. Not almost, You DO need a qualified engineer or very experienced structural repair person.
Surveyors are like bad engineers - take on jobs not qualified for, and the the report reads: "hire a qualified person to....."
I had a 36-footer with "severe-looking" teak bulkhead water damage (due to a deck leak) that I was brokering for a deceased friend. I explained the situation to a local broker, and was clear that I needed it evaluated so a buyer knew if it was, or was not, just cosmetic. He said, "Sure, I understand." I even said I'd remove anything or drill any discrete holes if he needed.
The survey came back, "Have a qualified person evaluate the water damage (And I'll take my fee and run)".). It even came back with "have a qualified tech evaluate the refrigeration." It was an 80% humidity day and he left the top open during the whole survey. Duh, yes dummy the plate will frost up when you leave the top open for 3 hours.
Most surveyors I've run across are low on the food chain. They're just inventory takers, and some not so good at that.
Don't waste your time even thinking about a surveyor looking at the stringer damage.
Odd though, from the pic the keel bottom/leading edge doesn't appear to be heavily damaged.
Quote from: KWKloeber on January 22, 2021, 10:05:06 PM
[quote author]
Most surveyors I've run across are low on the food chain. They're just inventory takers, and some not so good at that.
I have this same bias. Where I bought my boat there were very few sailboats and thus very few surveyors knew anything about them. I knew i needed a survey for insurance so i paid for one there. It was cheaper than where i live to get a survey done so i looked at it as just a cost saving measure and self surveyed the boat while i was there to review it.
I too suggest a qualified yard repair technician for this project. It will be to your advantage to make sure you underatand what you are getting into.
What exactly is a hard grounding? Story please.
Quote from: Sundance on January 21, 2021, 09:18:36 AM
As noted before, I was the previous owner and yes, hard grounding. There is cracking in the stringers aft potion of the keel area.
So the boat in question is "Sundance"? Looking at the picture it looks like the boat came down on the ground rather than bumping into it, when my boat was grounded it bumped into the rocks which left a gouge in the keel about a third of the way down, fortunately the damage was just cosmetic. How fast was the boat going when it grounded? That would be an indicator of how bad the damage might be. When my boat struck the rocks it was ghosting along at a knot or less, it was refloated in minutes. How long the boat was grounded would be another important indicator. Putting these pieces together will provide a clearer picture of the damage and what needs to be done.
I can only recommend separation of the keel from the keel stub. Any of the other fixes like mashing sealant into a crack from the outside or trying to seal the keel bolts from the top don't work for long.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html
It's been 9 years since I dropped my keel and it hasn't leaked or changed outward appearance in any way.
Also do not recommend complete removal. Leave the nuts at the top of the keel bolts and lift it up. Trying to get all 9 of those back into holes on two very heavy items seems like a real challenge. And there's no reason to do that for this repair. Best of luck!
Glenn
If you need to ask I'll guarantee that you haven't Knot Yet had one.
Here's mine:
Grounding; touching anything (from mud to sand to rock) that's not meant to be!
Hard aground; stuck and can't get off w/o some form of assistance.
Hard grounding; hitting anything hard with enough velocity (including vertical) that it causes some damage (min a lead bang, to more damage like the hull.)
One could have a hard grounding whether or not the boat remains hard aground afterward. Or one could be hard aground on bedrock surface with no damage, but swells roll in that cause a hard grounding.
Others' mileage may vary.
Dan
>>> Trying to get all 9 of those back into holes on two very heavy items seems like a real challenge. <<<
Did you have hard polyester that needed to be ground off?
What I had left must have been more daunting. I'm not sure how I could have gotten to all of the two surfaces to completely grind off all the bedding without having the amount of clearance that I did.
Of course I had two fewer bolts but it was a cake walk dropping the hull back on - the absolute least of the whole job. The number actually isn't important because if say three are lined up then 7 or 9 or 15 will be lined up. I'm sure it was much easier how I lifted/lowered her, opposed to a travel lift doing it; there was no option except the hull to go back down exactly to where it had been lifted. And the key about placement was having blocks (2x4, not ones with sheaves!) on the side and fore/aft of the keel frame so that the keel had only ONE location that it could fit back into (the original location.)
Jacking the keel sideways into place was actually also a cake walk, the 2nd least part of the job. I wouldn't want to imagine it with the yard at that time but other lift operators I've seen since then are quite nimble.