1986 - M25
I've been reading the trouble shooting and going thru the process, but meanwhile was looking for clarification on the starter switch itself.
We have a slow cranking issue, sometimes will not crank at all.
New and charged starting battery
We're told one problem might be the starter switch on the panel
It is a momentary pull switch.
I don't know if it means anything but, there are 12 volts going to the switch line side. When I pull the switch to start and have a meter on the terminal on the other side of the switch, it seems to fluctuate as it tries to crank but only gets as high as about 7 volts. Is that normal? Could it be an internal switch corrosion issue that needs replacement? I see push button switches on CD website but not a pull switch like we have.
The pull switch is on the far right and the glow plug button on its left
Even if I dont use the glow plugs (I always do), shouldnt I always have normal fast cranking?
Thanks
Hi,
Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out. It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location. Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug. See photo.
Voltage drop is always expected when starting.
Most times it's not the button, but rather all the other culprits: the fuse and holder to the starter solenoid, engine ground (cleanup required) or wiring issue somewhere.
ok thanks. yes ive never seen a pull start switch but it seems to work. I guess thats what he had in his tool box
will dig into the harness tomorrow!
Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?
I've never seen a control panel like yours, maybe you've got a very early production boat. What's your hull number?
You can't go wrong switching to bigger cables, less resistance. Your starter is cranking slowly because it's not getting the full 12v from that fully charged battery. Somewhere between the battery and the starter volts are being lost. As Stu said a thorough check of the electrical system making sure you've got clean, solid grounds would be in order before anything else.
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 24, 2020, 06:52:37 AM
Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?
Wary of? Yes, West Marine prices!!! I simply don't know how to emphasize any more
than the entire internet does about WM pricing. WM's allure is the availability of many items, not the cost. I was around when WM just got started, and I used to live less than 20 miles away from their startup garage! :D They were simply great for boaters back then. But this isn't about WM, it's about your question.
From Smitty, a C310 owner, very knowledgeable, who bought his boat, wintered over one year in Boston Harbor, and sailed to the Caribbean. He knows his stuff. He wrote, about wire:
For bus bars, anl fuses and holder vtewarehouse.com and genuinedeals.com for wire and lugs were the cheapest prices I found.Maine Sail added:
VTE has some good deals but I do prefer the Blue Sea ANL holders to the VTE though the VTE works. If buying the VTE ANL's I MUCH prefer the "High Amp" version. I am not a fan of the cover on the low amp ANL version.Also the ANL's VTE sells are not ignition protection rated. Sometimes the best deal is not the best product for the job. You can find ANL's on-line as low as $3.00 but they may not have the same trip delay curves as the ones from Blue Sea and they are not IP rated. Many of the ANL's sold act like an ANN fuse, or really are an ANN fuse but they simply slap an ANL label on them. The ANN's have a shorter trip delay curve and do not work as well for motor loads like a starter.... The VTE fuses are okay to keep as emergency spares but I would much rather use the Blue Sea ANL's..^^^quotes are from this post, "boat wire" https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/boat-wire.149812/?highlight=genuinedeals
With West Marine you're paying for convenience and unfortunately, like a lot of big retail outlets, they stock a lot of Chinese product, which I wouldn't recommend for road use let alone any marine application.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on November 24, 2020, 10:44:49 AM
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 24, 2020, 06:52:37 AM
Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?
Wary of? Yes, West Marine prices!!! I simply don't know how to emphasize any more than the entire internet does about WM pricing. WM's allure is the availability of many items, not the cost. I was around when WM just got started, and I used to live less than 20 miles away from their startup garage! :D They were simply great for boaters back then. But this isn't about WM, it's about your question.
From Smitty, a C310 owner, very knowledgeable, who bought his boat, wintered over one year in Boston Harbor, and sailed to the Caribbean. He knows his stuff. He wrote, about wire:
For bus bars, anl fuses and holder vtewarehouse.com and genuinedeals.com for wire and lugs were the cheapest prices I found.
Maine Sail added:
VTE has some good deals but I do prefer the Blue Sea ANL holders to the VTE though the VTE works. If buying the VTE ANL's I MUCH prefer the "High Amp" version. I am not a fan of the cover on the low amp ANL version.
Also the ANL's VTE sells are not ignition protection rated. Sometimes the best deal is not the best product for the job. You can find ANL's on-line as low as $3.00 but they may not have the same trip delay curves as the ones from Blue Sea and they are not IP rated. Many of the ANL's sold act like an ANN fuse, or really are an ANN fuse but they simply slap an ANL label on them. The ANN's have a shorter trip delay curve and do not work as well for motor loads like a starter.... The VTE fuses are okay to keep as emergency spares but I would much rather use the Blue Sea ANL's..
^^^quotes are from this post, "boat wire" https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/boat-wire.149812/?highlight=genuinedeals
I should have mentioned it's a 1986 Catalina 30 Tall Rig not a 34
The same mechanical issues will still apply. Have you gotten any suggestions from the C30 site?
It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply. And the M25 is common to high boats
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 25, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply. And the M25 is common to high boats
Have you tried this?
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30
One of the downsides to the C30 group efforts at developing a website is that they have too many of them.
We have been successful at keeping everything related to our boats right here on this website, albeit with three basic forms of information retention: this forum, the tech wiki and the tech notes.
The C30 group started out with their own website, but eventually it withered. More recently, some have started a new Google Group along with their own tech wiki (much copied from our own categories) to retain recurring & repetitive questions, since any internet "groups" are pretty poor at being searchable. There seem to be too many place to look for information about that single boat, although they have a long and distinguished history of sharing information, too.
Stu,
This is IMHO one of the best message boards on the web, that goes for boats, cars, sports, or whatever. Kudos to you and the guys who make it work. Maybe that's why we get C30 guys over here, the C30 is a wonderful boat and has a lot in common with the C34. I'm actually a little surprised we don't see C36 guys over here as well since like the C30 we also have a lot in common with the C36.
Quote from: scgunner on November 27, 2020, 07:29:16 AM
Stu,
This is IMHO one of the best message boards on the web, that goes for boats, cars, sports, or whatever. Kudos to you and the guys who make it work. Maybe that's why we get C30 guys over here, the C30 is a wonderful boat and has a lot in common with the C34. I'm actually a little surprised we don't see C36 guys over here as well since like the C30 we also have a lot in common with the C36.
Kevin,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. However, the "guys who make it work" are really all of you who visit, question and contribute. Thanks to all of you from all of us. :D
While there may be a tad of C30 skippers visiting, I have been active on many other boating forums and have linked many folks to the information we have gathered here, so it is more than just those who have similar boats. Most boats in our size range, regardless of builder, have much in common. In addition, electrical systems are pretty much consistent across the board. The Universal engines appeared in O'Days and Ericsons, among others.
The C36 Association has its own excellent website and forum. I had the great pleasure of meeting their new Commodore Les Troyer back in 2017 and we've become good friends, and have cruised together. There are quite a number of "C34 vs. C36" threads here, with each of us saying nice things about the other. As it should be.
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 25, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply. And the M25 is common to high boats
Also- trying to sort out the wiring rats nest. For instance bilge pump is wired to the starting battery. But today's issue is: The starter is connected to the 1. starting battery ( which has a lower Guest switch under the ladder) and also 2. the house bank which also has an upper Guest selector switch on the panel. I assume the prior owner rigged this, but does it sound familiar?
I guess the prior owner wanted to use the house bank if the starter battery was dead, but that can be done with the upper selector switch on 'Both' .
Probably going to rip all the original wires out and upgrade wire size to #2 anyway. Whole thing seems odd
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 28, 2020, 06:12:05 AM
Also- trying to sort out the wiring rats nest. For instance bilge pump is wired to the starting battery. But today's issue is: The starter is connected to the 1. starting battery ( which has a lower Guest switch under the ladder) and also 2. the house bank which also has an upper Guest selector switch on the panel. I assume the prior owner rigged this, but does it sound familiar?
I guess the prior owner wanted to use the house bank if the starter battery was dead, but that can be done with the upper selector switch on 'Both' .
Probably going to rip all the original wires out and upgrade wire size to #2 anyway. Whole thing seems odd
Maybe not so odd. There are a few different ways to do battery bank switching. They are covered completely in Electrical Systems 101, specifically these:
OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101
1-2-B Considerations (New 2020 - Rodd finally got around to diagramming what I had done in the above link in 2009 :) )
https://marinehowto.com/1-2-both-battery-switch-considerations/
Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615
This is a newer primer for boat system wiring design with a thorough digram: Building a Good Foundation (October 2016)
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/building-the-dc-electrical-foundation.181929/#post-1332240
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It would be useful for you to develop a wiring diagram of what you have before you rip it all out. Why? Because it may not be incorrect at all; it my well be one that is presented in the options of wiring diagrams presented in those links (which include two switch options). Or, it could be a complete SNAFU.
Point being that without a wiring diagram, no one can really help you out. Pictures of wires, and generally vague written descriptions, are useless in helping with wiring issues.
Good luck, hope you find information that helps you on your boat.
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 25, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply. And the M25 is common to high boats
007
The groups.io site link that Stu posted is the
official IC30A forum, any others are knock-offs and can't hold a candle (!!!) to the collective knowledge (1600 members) on there. :-) :shock: :shock:
I don't recall seeing a hard starting post on there very recently, as I typically am one who replies to those. Are you registered on that forum? :?
Yes the engines are the same but (typically) the ENGINE isn't hard starting - it's what makes the engine start (electrical system) that causes hard starting. There a some differences between panels, etc, so it's always wise to circle over to the ICC30A forum in addition to posting here.
Just for precision, both the ICC30A forum and techwiki are on groups.io - there were some issues with putting a techwiki on google groups (such as I had previously set up for C355) and so Max went with io groups. I don't know who started the google group, or when, or anything about if.
(Unfortunately I can't develop any interest in members to put much on the IC30A wiki, but I remain hopeful.)
There are some pretty detailed threads on here about the wiring upgrades. You might get lucky and find the culprit but if your boat is mid 80s and the panel has already been modified, it's likely you'll have several issues. You might find the switch is the culprit now, but next season it'll be the ground or a corroded connection. I built a new wiring harness following the recommendations on here this Spring and I love having the peace of mind that when I push the button it's gonna start. Mine is a 91 and when I took apart the harness I found poorly connected butt connectors on both sides (Engine and Panel) that had been neatly wrapped and organized future problems. If you have the time to do it I recommend taking the time to figure it out.
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 24, 2020, 06:52:37 AM
Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?
Be very wary of buying anything marine related off Amazon. Amazon is loaded with counterfeit products and in regards to battery cable copper plated aluminum (a horrible scam) is running rampant on Amazon. Use Genuinedealz.com to make your cables. They will custom make them to your exact length and lug ID dimensions so you actually get a professional install without extra wire where you don't need it. It is the best deal on the net and you get legitimate UL1426 marine grade tinned wire, quality sealed end tin plated copper battery lugs and adhesive lined heat shrink. If you ever plan to fuse the bank (to be ABYC compliant for insurance, & why Catalina built all later boats, even with the same/similar engines with 1/0 to 2/0 wire) you may want to up your wire gauge to 1/0 or 2/0. Also if you ever plan to add an inverter/charger or larger inverter 2 AWG may likely still be too small.
We've seen numerous owners redo battery cabling twice because they tried to save money on the per foot price of the wire and fail to consider potential future upgrades such as alternators, chargers, windlass, thrusters inverters and inverter/chargers. One of my guys did a Victron 2kW inverter/charger install in September where the owner had just re-done all the battery wire with 1 AWG. He was really, really bummed to learn much of it had to be re-done to accommodate the new Victron and for the house bank and inverter fuse to be compliant.
The difference in price between 2 AWG and 2/0 on the whole project is minimal. Let's assume you need 40' of battery wire, which is a lot, the total difference would be about $125.00 between 2/0 and 2 AWG.
You can also make your own:
https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/ (https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/)
Another place you may want to consider is Boat Electrical Systems which is loaded with industry pro's as well as DIY's there are over 16,000 members.
Boat Electrical Systems Group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/473516330105532)
.
Quote
Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out. It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location. Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug. See photo.
Stu
007 has an OEM, mid-80s, C30 panel.
The key is in its original location, as is the preheat switch.
On that panel, cranking was via the key (S position,) not PB switch.
Over the years (maybe on her/his) the key start was abandoned in favor of a PB. I don't know exactly why but Seaward documents indicate that buttoning was changed in response to owner complaints about what they needed to push and with how many fingers. Go figure!
On 007 someone's figured the pull start was easier (or the key switch failed?)
That pull start reminds me of my grandfather's McCormick Farmall tractor that I used to drive before I could even reach the brake/clutch!! Hey, we have "tractor" engines, don't we?
-k
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 02, 2020, 09:13:03 AM
Quote
Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out. It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location. Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug. See photo.
Stu
007 has an OEM, mid-80s, C30 panel.
The key is in its original location, as is the preheat switch.
On that panel, cranking was via the key (S position,) not PB switch.
Over the years (maybe on her/his) the key start was abandoned in favor of a PB. I don't know exactly why but Seaward documents indicate that buttoning was changed in response to owner complaints about what they needed to push and with how many fingers. Go figure!
On 007 someone's figured the pull start was easier (or the key switch failed?)
That pull start reminds me of my grandfather's McCormick Farmall tractor that I used to drive before I could even reach the brake/clutch!! Hey, we have "tractor" engines, don't we?
-k
Wondering if I should just go ahead and replace the starter pull switch back to a PB and eliminate one more possible slow crank cause
There's many things that can contribute to hard starting or non starts. The problem with nilly willy changing parts is one never knows if they've found the root cause, or if there's contributing causes — especially if the condition is intermittent.
How comfortable/experienced are you at troubleshooting? I don't mean just handling a voltmeter, but drilling down and narrowing down the suspects?
I am in the process of identifying all cables and where they come and go and start building a diagram of what I have
I have found undersized (4 + 6) battery cables, some with terminal corrosion, they will all be changed to #2 AWG
The + cable from the starter and the ground from the engine block go under the ladder, along the aft bunk, behind the house bank and up to the
upper selector switch. Then the positive comes back down to a lower selector switch and then the starting battery below the aft bunk. Another +
cable runs back towards the cockpit panel.
The engine ground runs to the house bank negative, and then back down to the starting battery negative
This seems very circuitous route, no?
The positive coming down from the upper selector switch to the lower selector switch, then to the + starter battery seems nuts. The lower selector switch only disconnects the positive lead to the starter battery to engage the cockpit panel and switch
So the house bank + it seems set on BOTH runs to the starter on the engine AND the starting battery
Is there a free program somewhere to write down an electrical diagram? The next few days will be pulling on cables and identifying / labeling them
as a start. I thought I could just pull them out and duplicate them with new #2 and reinstall, but seems some redesign with a pro might be in order in my opinion.
Quote from: Catalina007 on December 03, 2020, 09:57:42 AM
.......................................
Is there a free program somewhere to write down an electrical diagram? The next few days will be pulling on cables and identifying / labeling them
as a start. I thought I could just pull them out and duplicate them with new #2 and reinstall, but seems some redesign with a pro might be in order in my opinion.
Drawing Wiring Diagrams https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4821.msg29037.html#msg29037
Most of us have concluded that drawing first in pencil & paper is best, then decide which program you want to use. There undoubtedly are more than the ones in that link by now.
As a reminder, there are basic wiring diagrams in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic that include both the single 1-2-B switches as well as two and three switch designs.
Cat007 : I have always found that the primary cause of weak cranking is - cable & connections, cable & connections, cable connections!!!!
Don't be enamored by the "small" size of #4 wire. It's the connection!! - #4 wire (marine grade) is more than adequate to start your small 23HP engine.
A thought
Just to bring the C30 website/forum/info full circle:
I confirmed there is NO current C30 Google Group, renegade or otherwise. The groups.io is THE official IC30A forum.
There is a FB group but I've never visited it.
Max Munger will be unveiling a new IC30A website design - I don't know the changes or the schedule, I wasn't made privy to the change.
The only C30 techwiki is on the Groups.io forum, and it's VERY sparse - so any C30-ers listening please contribute to it. PM me if you want info.
007
Quote
they will all be changed to #2 AWG.
How did you (basis of) decide on #2?
Understand that the engine harness and panel and starter solenoid are also (can be) contributing factors to hard starting.)
I've done several harnesses for CTYs and others and if there's any info you need just reach out (PM or email.)
There's also an article of two on the IC30A wiki about hard starting that might provide some info you don't have.
Good luck!
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 04, 2020, 05:20:18 PM
007
Quote
they will all be changed to #2 AWG.
How did you (basis of) decide on #2?
Understand that the engine harness and panel and starter solenoid are also (can be) contributing factors to hard starting.)
I've done several harnesses for CTYs and others and if there's any info you need just reach out (PM or email.)
There's also an article of two on the IC30A wiki about hard starting that might provide some info you don't have.
Good luck!
The previous owner installed the Hearse glow plug solenoid
It appears to be the original harness , but I didnt find any trailer plug junctions
Some battery cables have corroded terminals and lugs. One of the lugs just fell off of a house battery when the battery was being removed.
The battery cables have to be changed anyway. I thought no point reinstalling 4 + 6 size
The positive cable from the lower selector switch to the positive start battery terminal was about 8 feet long. It only needs to be about 1 foot.
The ground wire looks awful. And I need to grind and clean up the block connection.
Thanks for the offer. I tried to get into Tech Notes and it asked for a password which I gave, then wouldn't let me in.
All of the fuel lines and filters are now changed including the small injector return lines. Some were in pretty rough shape. Snaking them under the floor, etc. That was one project done while I continue to take breaks assessing the wiring. There are lots of dead headed wires and connections on various battery terminals I need to chase down. One of the wires on the starting battery was the bilge pump, dont know yet the other 3. Bilge pump needs rewire to the house bank.
low plug wiring looks original and horrendous. Lots of corrosion at the plugs which look original. Next will be all raw and coolant water lines. Upgrading to 3 inch HeatEx.
@007
You need to be an IC34A member to access TechNotes.
Could the extra battery have been in the engine compartment? Or maybe the cable was sized for that option.
Consider using it for an emergency reserve, not starting.
Put the negative cable on the outside starter bolt NOT back on the bell housing.
Cross post when you get the hose size and I'll add it to the techwiki someplace. I wish we had a complete list of hose sizes and lengths (30 and 34).
-k
Cat007 : I would have replaced the old bat.- eng. wiring with the same size marine grade #4 wire. As I recall the C30 battery compartment distance to the engine is much closer than in a C34.
If you want a great ground - run a second ground wire from the batteries direct to the Alternator!!
A thought