Messages

Ron,

Noah is correct if you've got a leak in the aft tank that should be easy to determine. Without using it if you have to keep topping it off every few weeks or couple of months the tank is obviously leaking. If that's the case you also have another problem, the leaking tank will fill the pan that it sits in and when the boat heels the water runs to that side comes forward and leaks through the bottom of the bulkhead into the aft cabin. It's also possible if you haven't changed the cockpit drain hoses that could be the culprit, when I changed mine I don't know if they were leaking but they were badly cracked.

On the "Scag Dimple" (I actually had two) there was some really nasty standing water in mine. Using epoxy and filler I faired mine in so the bottom is smooth and any water now simply runs down to the bilge.

Filling the 'dimples' in was something I was considering as well.  They don't serve any purpose other than to provide a breeding ground for things I don't want on the boat!

Correct.

Mann, it's so nice to see "freshwater" steering!

LOL. I know! When I see the saltwater photos, I'm always surprised at how much corrosion can occur.

While were on this topic of 'water' do you happen to know where rain water is coming in and settling in the 'dimple' aft of the P bracket?  I always find water pooled there in the spring until I get the cockpit enclosure up, and keep thinking it's the emergency rudder cover as I can't see anywhere else that would let that much water in.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Is the coolant low in the expansion (recovery) tank or in the engine itself? If it's the expansion tank look for a crack in the plastic tank, may have to remove it to get a good look.  If it's the engine pressure check like Ken said.  It's an easy test.  May not be so easy to find.
Jim   

Expansion tank in the cockpit lazarette is pretty much empty by spring, stays full all through the warm months.   It was cracked as I had coolant in the lazerette for a year, and I figured that it was damaged with all the stuff coming in and out of the lazarette and changed it (after tightening the clamps etc, no change).  That fixed the coolant in the lazarette, but not the bilge.


I asked around the marina, and apparently I'm not the only universal engine that does this.  We've got a number of Catalina's here and most people have some; others none.  Other folks with M35 engine saw the same thing, evidence of coolant on the port side, mid point of the engine, on the floor between the engine supports.

I rang the local diesel mechanic and he immediately asked me if it was a Universal... said he's managed to correct it on only 2 engines over the years, and has talked to Universal and they only said it was likely a fitting somewhere that is contracting with the cold.

Noone seemed uninformed that I spoke to. If anything a number of people have been trying to figure this out over the years.

I have no explanation for this, or why some people have it and some don't, assuming all maintenance has been done.

Anyways, I'll give the engine a good once over, and see if I can find any 'trails', and if that doesn't work I'll see about the pressure test.

The coolant in the bilge is there in the spring after winter.  None in the bilge during the season.  I've asked around and apparently its a known issue.  I guess over the hard winters the hoses/engine contract, and you get a small drip.  Over 6 months, and it being non freezing fluid it accumulates.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Shamrock, a 2001, in 20 seasons has never lost any coolant into the bilge, summer or winter (that's Erie Pa winters).  2 cups isn't much, but it isn't normal.  If it were me, I'd look for the leak before it got to be a real problem.  Possible a crack in the expansion tank.  Does the cooling system hold pressure?
Jim

How would you test for pressure?

@pbyrne

Whomever is giving you that answer about the coolant either

1. Doesn't know what they're talking about
or
2. Is intentionally feeding you BS.

Over 30 years, half of that on the hard over Buffalo winters I've never had a drop of coolant in the bilge in the spring. So, no it's not a known problem about Universals.

I tend to think the bad info is #1. because (even if it occurred as "they" claim due to contraction,) CLAMPS ALSO CONTRACT over the winter (greater than the rubber hoses) and therefore hoses connections become even tighter, not looser, during the winter. 

And, there's NO WAY a "drip" from such a "loose" hose connection due to contraction, not under pressure with cold coolant, would lose 2 cups.

The engine closed cooling system has something going on, somewhere, and it's fixable. Permanently.

I don't disagree, I thought the same thing. Metal contracts more than rubber.  However, I have not been able to pin down where the issue is, and I'm out of ideas.

The only thing I can think of is to call a local mechanic who may have come across this before, or put a UV dye in the coolant and use a UV light to try and trace it.

I'm open to ideas!

Ok, so I think I loosen the nuts showing in the third photo, and tighten to draw the bolt with eyelet through the quadrant, on both sides, then tighten the lock nut, and voila?

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!

Ask Warren Pandy at the factory.


Some have installed a pvc pipe tower at each nut to keep the nut inside dry from water in the bilge. I used 5200 to seal around the bolts and under the washers before nutting down.

Seems that it would be worthwhile to track down the source of in the bilge and eliminate the coolant?

The coolant in the bilge is there in the spring after winter.  None in the bilge during the season.  I've asked around and apparently its a known issue.  I guess over the hard winters the hoses/engine contract, and you get a small drip.  Over 6 months, and it being non freezing fluid it accumulates.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Many years ago when my wife and I started sailing, we purchased a pair of wireless headsets at a boat show called "Marrige Savers".

We used them a few times then just started using hand signals and repeating what the other says in docking or anchoring situations. Problem solved. We gave the headsets away as a gag.

Makes sense.  But, as I said, I have both hands full, and she can't see me.

We've both been trained on and used hand signals for anchoring....with a boat that was all chain and a gypsy so you can stand up, use one hand to signal and use your foot, or hand remote to control the windlass.

In windy conditions, you need the boat to help retrieve, which means hand signals, which means standing up, in swell with no way to hang on, hands are full with rode/chain, then let go with one hand to signal, and try to hold on to the full weight of anchor/chain/rode, plus a sh!t ton of weeds in many cases.

Been there, done that, have the brusies to show for it! 

Calm conidtions I can manage by pulling the boat myself which eliminates the need for communications with the helm, so no problem.

[There is NO substitute for arm and hand signals!!!!]

pby : There is NO substitute for arm and hand signals!!!! 

That includes Voice Activated Walkie Talkies!!

A few thoughts

True but I would need 3 arms. I figure the radio is better than experimental surgery.

Looking for opinions or options for my wife and I for headsets, to help with anchoring.

I have to anchor by hand, as we don't have a gypsy, and have mixed rode and chain.

We've tried the usual hand signals etc, but I find I need both hands on the rode/chain and be sitting down in the locker.  Both of these things mean she can't see me, and I can't signal in rougher weather as I'm managing the rode/chain.

We've settled getting something to help us go hands free so I can direct her where to drive the boat and keep my hands safely on the rode/chain.

I've looked at the usual 'marriage savers' and they are pretty pricey, and I've looked at VOX enable walkies, wihch seem more reasonable in price.

Any thoughts on what equipment is a good buy? 

I will cavet this, I'm not looking for better technique.  For us we've settled on some kind of comms.  Not that I don't appreciate all the usual wisdow on here as I do!

@pbyrne

I think you are looking at the result of freeze-thaw. 
A little water gets behind the fairing (typically from wicking down the keel bolt threads and attacking the polyester "mung" keel bedding.) 
Then it only gets worse and worse, year after year.  That's what happened on my C30, except about 1/3 of the bedding was "gone."  Not gone as in missing, but "gone" as in turned into wet mush (like wet drywall) from water leaking down the bolts to the bedding and attacking it.

I doubt you tightened the keel by torquing the nuts.  More likely you were compressing the nuts into the fiberglass bilge. 

IIWMB here what I would do to first investigate/confirm what's going on.

1) Use your angle grinder ("cheap" at Harbor Freight if you don't have one) with a 1/4" thick wheel https://www.lowes.com/pd/DEWALT-Silicon-Carbide-4-5-in-Grinding-Wheel/1207179 (buy several!) 
Using a Dremel as some typically suggest (or any other child's tool) is just wasting your time.  It's an adult job, use an adult tool.

2) At the most forward and aft points, grind away ONLY enough fairing covering the joint to expose the joint/bedding material.  It should be whiteish-gray (or grayish-white?), about 1/4" to 3/8" thick, polyester mung between the keel and stub. 

3) Snap a chalk line to mark the precise location of the joint along the keel.

4) Use the wheel sideways -- such that you grind a slot into the fairing/bedding.  NOT flatways grinding away a 4" or 5" swath of fairing.)  Lightly grind a shallow groove then keep going back over it to deepen it until you get to the bedding. Grind just below the edge of the bedding, not deep into it.

5) Probe the condition of the bedding (ice pick, thin screwdriver, etc.) to see if it is competent or if spots have deteriorated.

6) Obviously while grinding you can determine what's going on, how extensive the "peeling" fairing is, if the bond is broken and is loose, and if it needs to be ground away as well.   

7) What you discover will determine the fix -- simply filling the ground-out slot with G-Flex, or grinding off more fairing (wider swath) to wrap the joint (I used 4" biaxial glass tape/epoxy resin, but I would use carbon fiber if I did it again today.)

I can't say for sure whether or not the nuts went into the fibreglass or not, but they didn't appear too.  I can see how using 500lbs of torque or something nuts would do that, but 105 which I believe is the recommened torque shouldn't do that should it; unless there is something wrong with the fibreglass?

Also, while I ensure the bilge is dry during the sailing season, winter layout always results in engine coolant in the bildge over the winter.  100% guaranteed.

What's the approach to ensure that the keel bolts can't 'wick'?

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!

Sticking my nose in here simply because I do have a bit of experience with Catalina 34 keel attachment.
In going back and forth with Catalina recently I know that Catalina covers the joint with fiberglass and then a fairing compound over the glass to smooth it out. I found evidence of this during recent work on my C34.
Based on this picture, I see no evidence of the glass, only a clear line at the keel joint itself. Perhaps this boat had its keel removed sometime in its past but the joint wasn't glassed over when reattached? Or the joint was exposed for some reason and not glassed back over?
I'm definitely of the mind to remove the bottom paint and fair and putty the joint as needed. If the flaking recurs then you can consider grinding the area back and glassing the joint, but with no weeping it's definitely a cosmetic repair.
As is often said around these parts, YBYC.

Interesting.

I'm the second owner and for the 4 years I've owned it the keel hasn't been touched other than to tighten the keel bolts, and for the other 20 years, most of that it spent on a tame, fresh water river, in Ontario Canada.

I'm 100% confident the keel has never been removed, ever, for any reason.

Unless there's a layer of fiberglass hiding somewhere the picture doesn't show, Catalina did not use fiberglass on this keel.

I can also say that there were 3-4 other C34 MKII of around the same age, where the boat used to be, and they all looked identical at the keel to hull joint to my eye.  I looked around the yard the first year this started to happen.

How so you cut the bands...?

Big scissors or slip a thin piece of wood under the bands and use a knife. They cut easy enough if they are plastic as mine were.
Jim

Good point. I assumed they were metal.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  Did you attach the straps themselves to the tray or where they wrapped around the tray and the tank and then cinched down?

They wrapped around the tray, same as the original banding straps.  That's the reason for pulling a tracer line with the old banding straps then used the tracer to pull the hold-down strap thru.
Jim

Got it.

So how do you cut the bands...?

Ok.. I think I get it.  How did you secure the ends of the straps?

Rolled them up, sort of more liked folded, then secured with cable ties.
Jim

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  Did you attach the straps themselves to the tray or where they wrapped around the tray and the tank and then cinched down?