I've been thinking (a dangerous thing) and thought I would run this by the group before I started drilling holes. I searched the board but didn't see a posting on this subject.
Serenity is a 2005 MKII model. In the middle of the port locker, toward the forward end of the locker, is the overflow coolant hose. As you can see in the pictures (1: view of hose running through floor of locker; 2: hose and coolant tank; 3: hose running up forward of the fuel tank to the floor of the locker), it comes up from beside the fuel tank, through the floor of the locker, and then runs under the seat to the coolant tank. My issue is that it is located in an awkward location, preventing me from using the full locker and at risk of being damaged by something heavy sliding around (I keep the stern anchor in a crate in the locker).
[attach=#][attach=#][attach=#]
Has anyone else addressed this? One option is to move the hose to the corner of the locker, getting it more out of the way. It would still be vulnerable, but the seat above would keep the anchor crate from hitting it.
Another option would be to completely relocate the holding tank, perhaps to inside the engine compartment.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Michael
I agree that looks like an accident waiting to happen. Looking at pictures of the MKII engine room on Yachtworld it does not look like there is a convenient place to put the overflow bottle as it needs to be at least as high or higher than the coolant tank. I also don't see a need for the large loop attaching it to the bottom of the seat, think they did that to get it off the locker floor. Not sure of the exact layout, is it possible to make a hole in the vertical part of the locker floor at position 1 or 2?
Hi Michael,
The coolant bottle location you have looks to be vulnerable to gear shifting in your locker as you have suggested. My boat is quite a bit older but my bottle is located under the sink in the head accessed easily through the door under the sink. There is a picture in Reply #1 of this recent thread. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html) (I know I don't have the proper hump hose on the muffler... I'll get to it) You can see the bottle is just above the remote regulator. Some have devised a simple cover for the regulator made from old tupperware or equivalent to prevent any coolant drips from damaging the regulator; something I haven't done yet but I will get to it. I find it convenient since it is easily accessible when I'm inspecting the engine. I have to transfer the coolant mixture from the 4 litre jug into a smaller container to fill the bottle but this is done infrequently and is not a real inconvenience. Locate the bottle as high as possible on the head side of the engine bulkhead and it will be out of harms way from the gear in your cockpit locker.
Does anyone know why this wouldn't work on newer C34s?
Thanks for the feedback. I think you're right, Ken, about the loop just being to route the hose to the overflow bottle. The Universal installation guide just says that the bottle has to be level or above the manifold. Nothing about a loop.
Regarding your suggestion about bringing it up through the vertical part of the locker floor, I probably took about 50 pictures while I had the panels off in the aft cabin. But that's the one area I didn't photograph. The closest I have is the picture below. My arrow #1 roughly correlates to your arrow #1. The sloped area is for the opening port. The vertical part of the locker floor is to support the top of the plywood panel, which slides into it. I could probably pass the hose through a hole drilled in the vertical part that's above the cabin roof, but I would definitely have to notch the plywood. That would put the hose exit right below the bottle.
[attach=#]
That would solve the issue of the hose being in the way. The downside of this approach, other than notching the plywood, is that the coolant tank is still in the way and subject to being hit by objects in the locker. The engine compartment is definitely tight--would need a shoe horn. I kind of like Dave's idea of moving the whole works to the bulkhead under the head sink. To be honest, that's probably a more convenient location to check than the locker (or the engine compartment), and a lot more protected. I don't remember anything being in the way there, but will have to check this weekend when I'm down at the boat.
I can't believe I'm the only MKII owner who's wondered why that hose is sticking up in the middle of the locker. Maybe they only did it on a few of the C34s.
Perhaps the easiest place to move it to is right above the engine in the aft cabin. I looks like it could be mounted on the port wall just above the shelf. If the wall is thick enough use screws, if not through bolt into the head. Out of the way, easy to view/service.
My 87 does not have a coolant tank and I would like to add one. Would like to hear from M-1 as to where their tank are mounted. My wall inside the head has the fuel pump and large fuel filter so this area is used. I mounted my regulator for the alternator on the back wall under the sink in a Plexiglas box I made. So not much room left under the sink.
Mel,
My 87, hull number 367, has a make shift one sitting on the deck sort of behind the engine. It is one of many items on the "to do list". I'm looking at putting it on the shelf in the aft cabin, above and behind the engine. It's funny how when you cross one thing off that list, you have to add two more to it. At this rate the next owner will have nothing to do but sail. Like I'd sell at this point.
On a different note, for all in and around San Diego, the Parade of Lights was a BIG hit. We volunteered our service and was picket boat position 14, one of the best seats in the house.
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Michael : I'd definitely move that bottle out of the port side locker, for all of the reasons mentioned. You can look under the sink in the head or as Ken mentioned in the aft cabin.
Here are a few other ideas. It's something that you periodically check, as the coolant level will only change if you have a leak or have a hose failure. Those situations usually happen with older hoses. I'd recommend checking the coolant as often as you check the engine oil.
When I installed my new engine it had a coolant bottle similar to yours. I went and purchased a tall narrow 20oz Rubbermade bottle because it fits just behind the engine. So there's nothing saying that you have to use the same bottle!! Nor that the coolant feed has to be in the bottom - my tube comes in the top!!
mel : I wrote a Mainsheet Tech notes article (early 1990s) on how to add a coolant recover system on an M25 &M25XP engine. A simple task and I (then) used a 1 qt Rubbermade bottle and wire tied it to the rear port side of the engine compartment. The wire tie (holding it in position) also served as the line to measure the coolant level in the bottle.
A few thoughts
Mel low,
My 87 is set up just like yours under the sink in the head. I have a fuel pump, and fuel filter mounted on the wall and no room for a coolant tank. Looks like my boat never had a coolant tank or perhaps a PO removed it? Is there a critical reason to add one other than to easily check the fluid level? I have never in the five years of owning my boat seen coolant spill out into the engine compartment. If there were a leak in the system, it would replenish the coolant tank from the overflow reservoir, but that would only buy time unless the leak was spotted. And since we should be inspecting our engine frequently, is this reservoir really necessary or simply convenient? :?
Les : It's the convince like your auto of not to have to open the "radiator cap" to check the coolant.
You also allow air into the coolant system and air (oxygen) is a needed ingredient to make rust.
Also, I got tired of having some coolant spit out on the flooring between the engine and the port side engine wall.
Just makes for a cleaner engine compartment.
My tank is located in the same place as yours and I have never had a problem with it and it is easy to check fluid levels. I don't think my hose connection to it is routed the same way as yours is, but I do not remember how it is routed. I will go to the boat tomorrow and check to see what I have.
Jack
Ron,
Those are good points. Thanks. I have always thought about adding this coolant reservoir but so far, this project keeps slipping down the list. Like Ralph says, the project list is endless.... and, I now have more ideas about where to locate it!
Quote from: Ken Juul on December 20, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
Perhaps the easiest place to move it to is right above the engine in the aft cabin. I looks like it could be mounted on the port wall just above the shelf.
An interesting spot, but that shelf is hinged (piano hinge on forward edge) and opens to allow access to the rear of the engine. There's no clearance between the shelf and the wall. Going by memory, I don't think there is space inside the engine compartment below that shelf either, due to the exhaust riser and the need to have access to the heat exchanger to remove the zinc.
Ron: Agree about checking it frequently. As part of learning the boat and systems, I compiled a set of checklists including periodic maintenance. Engine oil, transmission fluid, coolant, all get checked at the same time.
I'll have to poke around in the boat this weekend, but for now I'm leaning towards relocating it to under the head sink.
Thanks,
Michael
A lift up lid. Great idea! That opens up some other options. How about here? Mounted on either the stbd or aft side of the engine box so it is away from the exhaust. High enough so the top to the bottle is just under the lid for easy servicing and viewing.
Here's where the coolant recovery tank ended up. It was a very easy mod as the coolant hose was routed through this compartment as part of the black bundle in the middle of the picture running from left to right. There were two existing screws (to hold the platform above the engine) at just the right location and distance apart, so I didn't even have to get out the drill.
[attach=#]
I haven't made up my mind whether to keep it here or move it to the back wall under the sink, mainly because I've also decided to move the primary fuel filter here as well. I hate having to crawl under the mattress and floor board in the aft cabin to check the fuel separator, especially while under way. There appears to be enough room for both. The fuel hoses (feed and return) are the other two hoses in the bundle, so the hardest part of the mod would be drilling the holes to mount it.
I gained almost a foot of length in the port locker by moving the hose, and now I don't have to worry about the hose being damaged.
Thanks for the suggestions...
Michael
Is there enough room above the recovery tank to be able to pour in more coolant if needed? Seems like you will bump into the bottom of the sink.
Quote from: Roc on January 04, 2012, 04:09:35 AM
Is there enough room above the recovery tank to be able to pour in more coolant if needed? Seems like you will bump into the bottom of the sink.
Well, I'm not going to be able to pour directly from the gallon container into the tank, but there is plenty of room to use a cup. That's how I refilled the tank after moving it.
Regards,
Michael
Michael,
Nice photo. The main problem I see is you don't have enough "stuff" in that space yet. On my 87 I have a racor fuel filter and the lift pump and all the hose for those two items.
Happy New Year,
Ralph
So, here's a kind of dumb question (or as my daughtor-in-law says, "There's no such thing a dumb questions, only dumb people"): If the hose from the coolant overflow goes into the bottom of the bottle, and the bottle is above the level of the coolant cap, when you fill the bottle, do you have to worry about messing up the pressure in the cooling system?
Scotty : The answer to your question is NO.
What is happening is that as the engine runs the coolant is heated up and expands. The cap is set for 13lbs psi so when that psi is reached the seal in the cap moves up (opens slightly) and the expanded coolant runs into the overflow tube and into the coolant recovery bottle. As the engine cools the coolant contracts forming a partial vacuum and the coolant from the bottle is sucked back into the engine reservoir.
No air ever enters the system unless you open the cap on the reservoir. No need to open the cap because you can look at the level in the bottle and be certain that your fluid level is OK.
Just like in your auto/s
The M25 and M25XP engines did not come with a coolant recovery system -- that's why I made my own and wrote it up in the Mainsheet tech notes 24 years ago.
A few thoughts.
Ron,
Thanks for the additional information I was actually wondering the same thing. At least I now know that my boat never came with the coolant recovery system in 87. But I have now added this item to my to-do list! I love this site, but the more I read, the longer my to-do list is becoming. It's endless. Ah, but I love it. I am going to have to retire so that I have more time to work on my boat! :shock:
Thanks Ron. Does the recovery bottle become pressurized (so that the coolant can flow back into the system through the cap)?
So here's a little story for you: Last week I went out under power when the engine overheated! My first warning was smoke coming up out of the cabin. I turned off the engine immediately and anchored. It turned out that I had something blocking the intake for the raw water. I took a tow in (hey, I already paid for Vessel Assist) and at the dock undid the intake and pushed a screwdriver through the fitting. Got the water flowing again. The engine coolant level was now low so I refilled it with 50/50 water and antifreeze. The engine is running fine, so I figure I dodged a big one. I have to check the impeller (I'll just put in a new one) and like Les, my to-do list just got a bit longer. A coolant recovery system is in my future.
I had assumed that I had a heat alarm because I had an alarm when the engine switch is on (and the engine not started). I assumed I had both oil pressure and heat on that alarm. Guess that assumption is wrong. It seems my to-do list just got longer again.
Sometimes you can't hear the alarm when the engine is running.
Scotty, not sure of your connection between the raw water side with the blocked intake and your freshwater coolant level.
For those of you without Vessel Assist (I'm one of 'em):
From my May 2008 Secretary Report in Mainsheet:
Among the interesting little "tidbits" of information that I'd remembered reading about on the website had to do with cleaning out the raw water intake with a dinghy foot pump. On a nice mid-winter March sail with Ken Heyman, our treasurer who was here visiting, we had just left the South Beach Marina and were motoring over to see the "Lady Washington," one of the tallships that regularly visits the Bay Area and has cannonball encounters of the close kind with fellow tallships. Since it was cold out, there seemed to be a bit more white smoke from the exhaust than usual, which I attributed to the lower air temperature. Upon checking the temperature gauge, we noted it was pegged and stopped the engine immediately. Ken and I went through a checklist of actions we could take. Sailing back to the marina was not among them, since there was no wind and the end of the ebb was setting us north towards the Bay Bridge. Thru hull strainer clear – check. Raw water entering – check, but a trickle and less than expected. Raw water pump impeller in one piece – check. Raw water pump turning – check. Spare raw water pump gasket to replace cover – check. Temperature gauge working properly – check. Hoses and thru hull clear – hmm... We got the dinghy foot pump out from the lazarette, replaced the strainer and opened the seacock. Because the arrangement of the hoses and the strainer on "Aquavite" aren't configured to connect the pump there, we removed the hose from the raw water pump and used the dinghy pump at that end of the hose. That turned out to be actually be easier than trying to work under the head sink. There was significant resistance at first, but after setting the three way valve on the foot pump to a higher pressure setting, the pump started working. Whatever had been clogging either the thru hull or the line was flushed out. Once everything was reassembled, we started the engine and all was well. Lesson Learned: It pays to read the material on the website because you just never know when you'll be faced with an insurmountable problem only to find out that one of our skippers had "been there – done that" and had most importantly reported it for all of us to know. Thanks to Ken for his analytical assistance!
I've posted this before and Ron has noted that this method won't work if your blockage is due to "hard stuff" like barnacles.
Another excellent way to clear non-hard obstructions blocking raw water in the thru hull is to remove the strainer cover, and put the horn end of an air horn up to the strainer- open the thru hull if it isnt open already and then press the button to get a nice blow through it.
The horn is an almost perfect fit to the open end of the strainer!
Been there, done that, and really impressed the fleet admiral with how quickly the problem was resolved!
Roland Gendreau
Gratitude #1183
Roland,
Pardon the pun, but that sounds like a great way to do the cleanout.
Ralph
Quote from: Ron Hill on January 05, 2012, 05:12:15 PM
No air ever enters the system unless you open the cap on the reservoir. No need to open the cap because you can look at the level in the bottle and be certain that your fluid level is OK.
I thought this when I first got my C34. There was plenty of fluid in the reservoir. But when we opened the pressure cap on the engine, there was a lot of fluid missing, and the level of fluid was a couple of inches below the cap. We replaced the water pump which showed signs of leaking, tightened hose clamps, refilled the coolant and bled the air out of the system. Now I still periodically check to make sure that the engine is full of coolant, regardless of level in the reservoir. I find that I need to check all the hose clamps from time to time.
Tony
Scotty : No the coolant recovery bottle is NOT Pressurized
The reason that your coolant was low when the engine cooled off is because you opened the cap and saw that the coolant was low. It was low because when the coolant heated and pressurized under the cap the excess coolant went out the overflow into your engine compartment floor (port side). Then when the coolant cooled the reservoir sucked in air. If you had a coolant recovery bottle it would have sucked in coolant to replace the coolant that had expanded!!
What you need to do is read your operators manual and look/read the wiring diagrams to find out that on the M25 and M25XP that the alarms that you hear when you turn on the key are
- 1. NO oil pressure and if the sound persists when the engine starts
- 2. the starter engage.
Since I "caulked on" an external strainer in 1997, I haven't had a clogged raw water inlet !!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on January 06, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Since I "caulked on" an external strainer in 1997, I haven't had a clogged raw water inlet !!
I don't get barnacles, guess our water, year round, is too cold.
Ron's mentioned that his strainer is caulked on, just in case he needs to poke a dowel through his thru hull.
It seems to me that if nasties can grow, they're gonna get through an external strainer.
Like these: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=124964
Your boat, your choice.
Guys : Barnacles (nasties) grow almost anywhere, but they are "filter feeders".
If the water is not flowing they don't want to "stick" around. I disagree with MainSail as I've never had a problem.
But then I also check the thru hulls from the inside when I'm pulled for the winter every year!.
A thought