Replacing the Alternator on Eximius, purchased 100Amp Alt from Mainesail (thanks Rod)
Here's my wiring concept - just passing by you critics for your valued response before I disconnect the old Blamar :D
(I don't show the Fuses, Shunts, etc.)
Paul
Paul
Although not shown, presume there's proper fusing.
The white terminal is a/c tap. The others?
Note that it's totally redundant when CTY ran a fuel pump feed and alt field excite wires (from key switch) to the engine compartment. The last three harnesses I did simplify that -- one for both. That's the "new" way Wb does it on the b series engines.
kk
Ken, that's the way (as you quoted) that my harness is setup. This was more of a schematic.
Alternator terminals
.. Blue - Internal Sensor
.. Green - Ignition
.. Yellow - Ignition Lamp (not used)
.. White - Tach (stator pulse)
The Plus of this Alternator setup is that if the external regulator dies, I only need to disconnect it at the regulator and attach a jumper between the F and R terminals to activate the Internal Regulator.
Paul
The green wire is connected to the ignition switch as emergency back-up for the internal regulator. Should the external regulator fail simply install the brass strap across the F & R terminals and the internal regulator will now run the alternator. Alternatively an on/off switch can be installed across F & R and left OPEN/OFF indefinitely. Should the external regulator fail simply flip this switch to ON. This switch must be clearly labeled. For normal use, with an external regulator the brass strap is NOT installed between F & R.
Don't forget over current protection at 150% of alternator output within 7" of the house positive terminal.. Also a neg cable, the same size as positive, should be run directly to the house battery or physically stacked & bolted on-top of the engine negative lug, if that wire is appropriately sized. Despite this being a "case ground" alternator the neg side of the alternator should not rely on the engine as a circuit path. Early C-34's used 4 AWG and this would not be "appropriately sized" for carrying upwards of 100A to where the batteries are on these early boats. We are looking to keep voltage drop well below 3% for charging circuits..
Rod
Are you saying the green (ign) term needs to be jumpered to the F (field) terminal, and then in an emergency bond F (ign, field) to R (internal reg)? Or is the F terminal already internally bonded to the green Ign terminal? (If to, what's the purpose of having both the Field wire and the Ignition wire, if they are internally bonded anyway?)
ken
quote author=mainesail link=topic=9455.msg70692#msg70692 date=1494419465]
The green wire is connected to the ignition switch as emergency back-up for the internal regulator. Should the external regulator fail simply install the brass strap across the F & R terminals and the internal regulator will now run the alternator. Alternatively an on/off switch can be installed across F & R and left OPEN/OFF indefinitely. Should the external regulator fail simply flip this switch to ON. This switch must be clearly labeled. For normal use, with an external regulator the brass strap is NOT installed between F & R.
Don't forget over current protection at 150% of alternator output within 7" of the house positive terminal.. Also a neg cable, the same size as positive, should be run directly to the house battery or physically stacked & bolted on-top of the engine negative lug, if that wire is appropriately sized. Despite this being a "case ground" alternator the neg side of the alternator should not rely on the engine as a circuit path. Early C-34's used 4 AWG and this would not be "appropriately sized" for carrying upwards of 100A to where the batteries are on these early boats. We are looking to keep voltage drop well below 3% for charging circuits..
[/quote]
Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition
With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.
"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output
"F" is the brush
To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.
Rod,
Thanks for that explanation.
What is the purpose of the Green TERMINAL on the diagram, not the green wire? ie, what does the red ignition wire (going to the green terminal) power or connect to internally?
ken
Quote from: mainesail on May 10, 2017, 10:28:23 AM
Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition
With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.
"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output
"F" is the brush
To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.
As MaineSail said, "Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition". He is referring to the Green Terminal on the Alternator. It's the source of power to the electronics of the internal regulator.
Read this only if you are interested in a slightly more complicated discussion of the issues of switching back to the internal regulator in the case where the external regulator fails. It's optional, but following it results in a slightly better implementation of the emergency switchover.
Quote from: mainesail on May 10, 2017, 10:28:23 AM
Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition
With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.
"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output
"F" is the brush
To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.
If the external regulator fails, there is a tiny chance it could fail in a manner than shorts its field output wire to ground. In that case, in addition to installing the strap between terminals R & F, you would also want to disconnect and tape off the wire that runs from the regulator's Field control output terminal to the alternator's F terminal.
If installing a switch, the same thing would be accomplished by using a SPDT switch instead of just an ON/OFF switch. Remove the wire from the alternator's F terminal and connect it to one side of the switch. Connect the opposite end of the switch to the alternator's R terminal. Connect the center term of the switch to the alternator's F terminal. Label the switch so that the position that ties the F to the R terminal is INTERNAL and the position that ties the F terminal to the wire is EXTERNAL.
Quote from: J_Sail on May 10, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
As MaineSail said, "Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition". He is referring to the Green Terminal on the Alternator. It's the source of power to the electronics of the internal regulator.
J, Thanks,. OK, I THINK I understand it now.
I was ass/u/ming that the int reg was powered differently. So the green terminal CONTINUALLY powers the int reg (ie, it is always "working") but there is no effect because the jumper bar is removed. I would have thought that the int reg would be powered up "ONLY" when it's needed (if the ext reg fails).
Your 2nd explanation on the DT switch makes a LOT of sense.
kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 10, 2017, 10:15:10 PM
Rod,
Thanks for that explanation.
What is the purpose of the Green TERMINAL on the diagram, not the green wire? ie, what does the red ignition wire (going to the green terminal) power or connect to internally?
ken
Quote from: mainesail on May 10, 2017, 10:28:23 AM
Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition
With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.
"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output
"F" is the brush
To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.
Ken,
If you click on the second image in this link you will be able to see the plug/harness...
http://shop.marinehowto.com/products/cmi-performance-alternators (http://shop.marinehowto.com/products/cmi-performance-alternators)
Quote from: J_Sail on May 10, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Read this only if you are interested in a slightly more complicated discussion of the issues of switching back to the internal regulator in the case where the external regulator fails. It's optional, but following it results in a slightly better implementation of the emergency switchover.
Quote from: mainesail on May 10, 2017, 10:28:23 AM
Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition
With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.
"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output
"F" is the brush
To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.
If the external regulator fails, there is a tiny chance it could fail in a manner than shorts its field output wire to ground. In that case, in addition to installing the strap between terminals R & F, you would also want to disconnect and tape off the wire that runs from the regulator's Field control output terminal to the alternator's F terminal.
If installing a switch, the same thing would be accomplished by using a SPDT switch instead of just an ON/OFF switch. Remove the wire from the alternator's F terminal and connect it to one side of the switch. Connect the opposite end of the switch to the alternator's R terminal. Connect the center term of the switch to the alternator's F terminal. Label the switch so that the position that ties the F to the R terminal is INTERNAL and the position that ties the F terminal to the wire is EXTERNAL.
Sure that can always be done too but Mark & myself prefer to keep it as simple for the DIY as is possible. I suspect the odds of a failure like this are similar to walking around wearing a motor cycle helmet because you're afraid you might get hit by a meteorite. :D If the output FET on the reg field output were to fail shorted, the most likely scenario in this situation wouldlikely be a
full field situation. I have not seen any external regulator fail internally in this manner.
The safest installation IMHO is one where the F to R strap is wire tied or physically mounted near the alt and clearly labeled. If the external regulator fails you remove the external field wire when you install the F to R strap. Simple, just two nuts and your done. Wiring in any switch, between F & R leads to more connections, more voltage drop, and more potential for strain relief or chafe issues etc.. Course some owners feel they want this so it is mentioned.
As near as I can tell I have either installed or sold about 450-500 of the the ARS-5, MC-612, MC-624 or 614 regulators since about 2007 (I'm a Balmar stocking dealer/distributor and supply many local yards plus all the Balmar products sold OPE). I sell about 8:1 MC-614 to ARS-5 so my data is mostly based on the MC-614.. I sell approx 50 regs per year & sold 4 regulators or kits including regulators since last Friday. Of all those regulators I have had one bad one, and it had failed right out of the box. It had a bad reed switch and could not be properly programmed. It still worked fine but was stuck on UFP and could not be programmed.. Regulator failures since we've moved beyond the ARS-4's & the potting epoxy changes (I had two ARS-4's fail on my own boats) have been very few and far between
when installed properly.
The redundant internal regulator is really a
sales/benefit feature that perhaps 99.99% of owners will never even need. I suspect the risk of a DIY getting the wiring of the SPDT switch messed up, multiple more points for failure, strain relief etc. would be higher than the risk of failure due to field shorting to ground.
We should also keep in perspective that we don't have; redundant starter motors, fuel pumps, stuffing boxes, seacocks, reversing gears, rudders, standing rigging, nav lights, VHF's, raw water pumps, engine fresh water pumps etc. etc. so an alternator that features a redundant regulator is already really moving the failure protection to a new high beyond most any other critical item on-board. Many boats also have solar, wind, AC charger all on top of the alternator so a failure here is even less critical than a failed stuffing box, starter motor,head stay, bilge pump or seacock...
DIY's generally get ON/OFF switches but in my experience they begin to lose grasp once we enter the realm of DPDT or SPDT switches. For guys like you or I or Ken this is fine, but for
Joe DIY both Mark and I prefer to keep it simple. I actually don't like any switch, SP or SPDT, in the F to R path as it has the potential for inadvertently getting "flipped". With both regulators working it may not be noticed that the alt is running at 14.1V (internal) as opposed to 14.8V etc... Keeping it simple is achieved by installing the jumper strap only when, or if, you ever need it and when you do that you can simply remove the blue external reg field wire when you have the nuts off to install the strap...
What would be the consequence of the external regulator dying?
ie. If I were motoring along and the ext-reg died, what would I notice?
If I did notice that there was no charging taking place, then, IMHO, If the external regulator dies then it's not a big deal to disconnect the Field wire at the alternator and connect the jumper between F & R. (You know, 'while I'm in there')
But the SPDT switch would make it easier than trying to fiddle around at the back of the Alternator (and Hot engine!)
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on May 11, 2017, 08:30:54 AM
ie. If I were motoring along and the ext-reg died, what would I notice?
Paul, what instrumentation do you have for digital voltage readings? The cockpit panel won't help at all. We have a Link 2000 down below and I check it regularly. Easy to see "what's up." I also check the readout on my MC-612.
Good eyes and placement to"check your MC-612"! Mine is on the inside of the head sink door and I never check it. Maybe I should? I do have a digital multimeter on my main panel for my "what's what".
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 11, 2017, 12:00:41 PM
Quote from: britinusa on May 11, 2017, 08:30:54 AM
ie. If I were motoring along and the ext-reg died, what would I notice?
Paul, what instrumentation do you have for digital voltage readings? The cockpit panel won't help at all. We have a Link 2000 down below and I check it regularly. Easy to see "what's up." I also check the readout on my MC-612.
We have the Link 2000-R on the outside of the nav table.
OK, you have a great tool. Next time you're out motoring, turn your ignition key switch off and watch the voltage and amperage. That is what happens when the regulator is turned off.
Good point Stu, thanks.
It would also turn off the Fuel Pump, but probably not long enough to shut the engine down.
Update on Progress.
So today I went down to the boat to do the last part of the install. Wire up the Regulator Sensing and the Regulator -ve.
The Sensing +ve was easy, straight connect of the fused line to the small wire attachment plate on the Battery +ve terminal.
The -ve was not so easy, I decided to attach it to the Battery side of the Shunt in the -ve line. That's on the aft face of the bulkhead that is in front of the sink. I injured my ribs a week ago and don't bend double to well right now, so that job took a while.
All done, Double check that all wires and crimps are heat shrinked and firmly connected.
Test time.
Turned on the Ignition - Fuel pump runs - Check, Blower runs - Check, Glow Plug On - Check (fuel pump goes into overdrive which is normal on our boat) Then Ignition fuse blows! WTH!
Turns out the Starter solenoid cable had popped off the Solenoid Grrrrrr! Ken warned me about this, I should have gone with the after market solenoid that has a stud and nut in place of the push on connector. I'm not sure why the ignition fuse blew, possible short near the starter????
Anyway, after realizing that the terminal had popped off, I reattached it (that's not easy) and we tried over.
Fuse doesn't blow - Check
Blower off, Glow off, Start!
Grunt! The solenoid would not engage, just a grunt.
So on the way home I picked up a new Solenoid and will install that asap.
Are we there yet?
Paul
Paul
What is your "ign fuse" setup? Pics?
I'm looking at the solenoid I recommended. Just waiting to be shipped out. LOL.
An option: use a BARE female disconnect. Crimp to a 6" yellow #10 pigtail. On the harness end, crimp a fully insulated AHS male disconnect. By "fully insulated" I mean one that is fully enclosed when halved are put together (prevents corrosion). Attached.
CAREFULLY Solder the bare disconnect to the solenoid S terminal. AHS over the terminal. Use a heat sink so that you don't solder the pigtail wire and create a work hardening failure spot.
On your harness S wire, crimp on a matching fully insulated AHS female disconnect.
You now have a solid connection and still have a disconnect if needed. If possible zip tie the S wire so there is no movement at that solder spot (ie, no movement between the harness wire and engine).
I just now made up one of those for a harness shipping tomorrow. You can have one N/C. Or the better solenoid for the same Kubota cost.
Ken
Paul
One other option, only slightly better than the current quick disconnect on the solenoid
Instead of the typical 1/4 inch quick disconnect, use a Packard 56 female terminal. It has a permanent spring in it rather than relying on the fold over wings on a typical disconnect. The issue is, they may be available, but I have not seen those Packard 56 terminals sized for number 10 wire, only the largest being 14 gage.
kk
Thanks Ken,
The Ignition fuse is an inline ATO type fuse, 20amp
For the disconnect in the Start Solenoid wire from the control panel, could use something like the ATO type fuse with, say, a 30amp fuse.
If I needed to disconnect it, just remove the fuse.
??
Paul
Paul,
OK. I missed The first part of your post about having the harness fused. Duh.
Well you're right about sn ATO on the S wire, but I'm not sure what good that does you because you can kill power to it via the other ATO on the harness power wire. .Of course, the OEM engines had an in-line glass fuse right before the solenoid. It was basically useless because it's at the wrong end of the harness, and your harness is already fused. . The fuse was also problematic because being an in-line glass fuse like that there's extra connections and voltage loss and it corroded. It was not s good solution for a marine engine.
What's your objection to a good disconnect there, or a threaded post solenoid?
Do you have the glow plug relay/solenoid? If not a 20 amp fuse is probably light for everything. I figured 25 amp minimum.
Ken
Thanks Ken,
no glow solenoid, so I'll put the next size fuse up.(in the ignition line)
Update: DUH!
Installed new solenoid yesterday. Checked the glow wire to confirm no shorts. Tried to start
Now the 'DUH!'
Engine would not start! Exactly the same issue as the day before. Dang!
Got out my AVO and checked the V at the Solenoid/Starter. 10v 'DUH!'
Checked the V at the Master Start Switch - 10v
Now, I was under the impression that the engine was started by the house battery(14.0v) unless the Battery selector was switched to #2 'DUH!'
Wrong. The engine is wired to start via the Start Battery (so it's not a 'Reserve'). If the Battery Selector is switched to 'All' then the house battery is used to Start.
Start Battery V = 10v
If I had looked at the volt meter on the control panel I would have seen that low voltage.
Switched the Battery selector to All and Started the engine - it literally sprang into life. Smiles all around.
Ok, Engine starting system is fine, Start Battery is dead. (That explains a lot. The engine has been a bit reluctant to start the last couple of times)
New battery will be installed today. Will check charging circuit.
Learned a little more about our electrical system today. Always a good thing. I'll keep the old solenoid as a spare.
The new Alternator worked great and the regulator is working as expected.
I did turn off the ignition with the engine running, the Engine relaxed (no load) that would have been because the power to the Regulator was removed so no excite field voltage. Turned ignition back on and engine went back into labor as expected.
Paul