I have read all the previous posts on changing from OEM stiff motor mounts to Ventus mounts, either the K75 or combination of K75 & K50. Most of those posts go back a couple of years, does anybody have an update how the mounts lasted & if there was any resolution to the engine shaking at idle?
I replaced my mounts in 2012, so I have 3 seasons of running on them. They have held up just fine.
I never had a problem with the engine shaking at low RPM's and still do not.
Roland,
What mounts did you use?
I installed the K75's. i installed them one at a time, and it did not require hoisting the engine or disconnecting the exhaust. Of course the shaft needed to be re-aligned afterwards.
How did you get the old mounts off without lifting the engine? I read a previous post that explained cutting the bolts on the old mounts then taking the new mounts apart.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7920.msg54936.html#msg54936
Is this the technique you used?
Yes, that is the method I used. I put the new mounts in a vice and removed the threaded shafts. I used a sawzall (harbor freight) to cut the shafts of the old mounts to remove them. I did not need to use a hacksaw on any of them, but obviously you have to be careful the saw doesn't hit something inadvertantly. The shafts are pretty soft and cut easily. Once the base of a new mount is lagged down, just insert the new threaded shaft through the motor bracket, thread on a nut, put on some thread locking stuff on the end of the shaft and screw it into the mount. The threaded shaft can be tightened into the base with an allen key. I snugged the nuts a little more than hand tight , then went through the shaft alignment after all mounts were in place.
Ed : The reciprocating saw method and taking the mounts apart works well. I've changed mounts both ways.
However, make sure that you sweep the area with a magnet to pick up all the iron saw filing. If you don't tiny rust spots will eventually appear!! :cry4`
A thought
I had a diesel mechanic come by to look at the engine and give me an estimate for adjusting the valves. He made a suggestion I would like to share and get some feedback. He said the motor mounts were fine but they were walking because the lag bolts were not holding the mounts firm. I said I would either use longer bolt or drill and glass it over then drill. He said I should just use through bolts and explained one of the bolts on each side had already been done, showed me I could see this through the access holes at the rear of the stringers.
First two pictures show the motor mount with access to rear and the through bolt from under the stringer.
He then suggested I could drill two large holes in the front of the stringer to allow access to the front mounts, these are shown as the two large circles.
My question is has anyone ever heard of this or actually tried it? It sounds like a feasible idea but I have no idea how thick the front of the stringer is or how thick the top of it is. I can get a close guesstimate by comparing inside measurements to outside but I am not a contortionist and it is not easy working behind the engine.
Looks like I used the same pic twice on my original post.
I meant the last picture to be the following showing two black circles as potential locations to drill access holes.
Ed, I would be very hesitant to cut holes in the vertical face of the stringers. IMHO, those are the main supports for the front of the engine. OTOH, one could "argue" that the longer sides provide the support.
Here's what I've done: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5538.msg34486.html#msg34486 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5538.msg34486.html#msg34486)
The concept of even having a nut down below is brand new to me, and I'll have to go look soon at my port aft mount to see if that's the case. Since all discussions of this have always mentioned LAG BOLTS, having nuts down below seems counter-intuitive.
I've felt that as long as the silicone is keeping the lag bolts from loosening, it should suffice. The weight of the engine keeps them down and they are working more in shear to keep the engine in place fore & aft.
Stu,
I would agree but one of the current bolts on each of the rear mounts have already been changed to thru bolts. It would make sense to use a large fender type washer to spread the force and through bolt from the bottom up leaving a stud so that only a nut with a lock & flat washer has to be used. A circular hole should not weaken the structure which comes from the sides & corner. The picture of the back of the stringer looks to be a bit of a hack job and not very professional.
Ed : It's hard to be that your 30 year old engine mounts are still at their prime!! :shock:
I do not exaggerate when I say that the new mounts I installed change the engine running so much-- I thought I was on a different boat!!
I'd change the mounts - my thought
Ron,
Am going through maintenance records and have a call into PO. The mounts have been replaced just not sure when. The issue is you can see the mounts have moved and the forward lag bolts do not tighten. What do you think of the idea of through bolts from the bottom using large fender washers or such for backing? Through bolts are in 1 of the 2 mounts for each of the aft mounts. It is not possible to get to them via the rear access, would need a child's arm to even get close.
Ed : The first time I replaced my engine mounts here's how I did it. Maybe an Idea for you.
I disconnected the drive shaft and only lifted the front of the engine up high enough to remove the mounts and replace them. With the old mounts removed I "wiped" some epoxy on the walls of the lag-bolt holes and install new lag-bolts that were 1/2" longer to get a better "bite" into new wood. It worked just fine.
You might also try to figure out why the original lag-bolts are not holding - oil? fuel? prestone? leakage into the holes? - over tightening? - no lock washers ???
Again, I can't emphasize the difference between the new mounts and the old style mounts!! The new mounts absorbed the vibration rather than transmitting it all to the engine stringers and the hull!!
A few thoughts
ron,
You said:
"I disconnected the drive shaft and only lifted the front of the engine up high enough to remove the mounts and replace them."
Did you lift the rear of the engine to replace the rear mounts?
"With the old mounts removed I "wiped" some epoxy on the walls of the lag-bolt holes and install new lag-bolts."
Did you let the epoxy cure before you installed new longer lag bolts?
I take you comment that the new mounts made a HUGE difference. Did you replace al 4 old mounts with K75 mounts?
Quote from: Ekutney on February 16, 2016, 08:24:14 PM
ron,
I take you comment that the new mounts made a HUGE difference. Did you replace al 4 old mounts with K75 mounts?
Ed, K75s all around is what you need, I have several customers w/ M-25s and XPs that are very happy with them. You don't want to mix K75s and K50s, just take that at face value.
kk
I put K50's on mine and was very happy and I think that Ron put a combination of K50's and K75's on his and has been happy with those too. I think either will work OK. Maybe Ron or Stu will have a good reason for one or the other but I think that the K-75's are just a little stiffer than the K-50's
Mike
Ed :
"I disconnected the drive shaft and only lifted the front of the engine up high enough to remove the mounts and replace them." Then I lifted the rear of the engine and replaced the rear mounts
Did you lift the rear of the engine to replace the rear mounts?
Yes, but I believe that you need to disconnect the riser into the muffler to allow the engine to raise up. I was also changing out the muffler at that time. The riser stayed in place - attached to the engine!!
"With the old mounts removed I "wiped" some epoxy on the walls of the lag-bolt holes and install new lag-bolts."
Did you let the epoxy cure before you installed new longer lag bolts?
Yes , I let the epoxy cure.
I take you comment that the new mounts made a HUGE difference. Did you replace al 4 old mounts with K75 mounts?
Originally I replaced all 4 mounts with K50s based on Vetus's recommendation. I found out that the rear K50s were "too" soft and allowed the engine to vibrate and the shaft touch/vibrate against the tube thru the hull at idle. So later I change out the rear mounts to K75 and all was well.
The difference was unbelievable.
More than once when I told marina personnel to cast off the bow lines for me - they would come back with "aren't you going to start your engine? It was already running!! :clap
a few thoughts
Ron,
I plan to remove the riser, it is original. The mechanic can fabricate a new one, suggested I can go with black pipe but he would do a brass section where the nipple is attached. He also suggested to replace the muffler, he has installed a Veralift model that has both input & output on top.
What did you do for a replacement muffler?
I have flexible coupling is this the best point to disconnect the shaft?
Ed : If you have the original riser - it black pipe. Catalina didn't go to stainless until about hull #375?
I got my replacement muffler for Catalina factory.
I'd be cautious about a different muffler especially if it has a smaller internal capacity than Catalina's. Remember that you have about 17 feet of hose from the muffler to the exhaust exit. At some point when you shut off the engine some?? of that water/gas mixture in the exhaust hose will flow back into the muffler!!! :think
Just disconnect the flexible coupling from the transmission.
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 18, 2016, 01:17:58 PM
Ed : If you have the original riser - it black pipe. Catalina didn't go to stainless until about hull #375?
I got my replacement muffler for Catalina factory.
I'd be cautious about a different muffler especially if it has a smaller internal capacity than Catalina's. Remember that you have about 17 feet of hose from the muffler to the exhaust exit. At some point when you shut off the engine some?? of that water/gas mixture in the exhaust hose will flow back into the muffler!!! :think
Just disconnect the flexible coupling from the transmission.
A few thoughts
Ed,
Understand that the pics you have of the muffler setup with the high temp silicone fittings etc., on the other catalina installs for the XP and Beta 20 is with the Westerbeke water-cooled riser that was upgraded on those boats from the Catalina 1-1/4" pipe riser. It's MUCH better than the OEM riser and it requires a side-inlet muffler -- I worked the design out with Centek and the muffler capacity is as required for our size diesels. The reverse-inlet absolutely eliminates ANY chance of back flow thru the exhaust valves when heeled -- the old riser/aqualift muffler with the top inlet still has a (very slim) chance of backflow -- which is why it's so oversized (what's required on the M25 is an 8" muffler -- Westerbeke even used an 8" muffler on larger diesels (Canadian Sailcraft 36 comes to mind with 30 and 32 HP diesels.)
The Westerbeke water-cooled riser is the gold cadillac and is a significant upgrade from the hot iron pipe or stainless. If you fabricate a riser, use Schedule 80 black iron
NOT galvanized. Also, the new Aqualifts are better built than the originals that were prone to many leak and self-destruct problems, but they are not as well made as Centek mufflers.
kk
Ed : Take a look at the mufflers that Ken has suggested and then look at the space you have on your C34.
Determine if they'll easily fit and how you'll make the connections from the engine and to the exhaust hose!!
Also examine the prices as well as remembering my mention of the capacity.
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 19, 2016, 02:31:27 PM
Ed : Take a look at the mufflers that Ken has suggested and then look at the space you have on your C34.
Determine if they'll easily fit and how you'll make the connections from the engine and to the exhaust hose!!
Also examine the prices as well as remembering my mention of the capacity.
A few thoughts
Ron,
Understand that I'm not suggesting or recommending just "a muffler". This is in response to a "system" which is to significantly upgrade the "system" starting with the riser. That leads to the connection to the muffler, which leads to the muffler that "works" with that system, which leads to the connection to the exhaust hose. The theigh bone is connected to the leg bone, which is........
If I were replacing only a muffler, I'd likely use an aqualift, but fix its flaws before installing it.
Kk
Ken- you said "If I were replacing only a muffler, I'd likely use an aqualift, but fix its flaws before installing it." What does "fix its flaws before installing it" mean?
Quote from: Noah on February 20, 2016, 08:59:19 AM
Ken- you said "If I were replacing only a muffler, I'd likely use an aqualift, but fix its flaws before installing it." What does "fix its flaws before installing it" mean?
Noah,
The OEM aqualifts had weak points that are prone to leaking -- notably the seam between the base and cover. Though new ones are better made I would reinforce it IF I installed another aqualift. Also the aqualift isn't reinforced like, say, a Centek, and the hose connection nippes are prone to crushing. I had a pc of thin aluminum tubing that tapped snugly into the fiberglass tubes and allows torquing down the hose clamps without crushing the fiberglass.
See the write up on repairing an aqualift on the techwiki.
kk
Guys : If you use the Trident "hump hose" like I hope you are, there is NO need to "torque down" the hose clamp. The was needed when the factory used a piece of wire reinforced exhaust hose!!
Ken : There have been many improvements in items like mufflers and water cooled risers and I looked at them when I installed a new engine. The problem that a C34 owners is faced with is SPACE
People thought I was crazy to install a M25XPB (26HP) engine when for a few $$ more I could have installed an M35BC (35HP) engine.
The simple fact is that the 4 cylinder M35BC engine would NOT fit in the C34 hull that was made for a 3 cylinder engine. As it was I had to chisel out part of the teak steps to get the 3 cylinder M25XPB to fit!! I sent the water cooled Westerbeke riser back because it would NOT fit and had to manufacture my own adaption rise to fit the space and align with the aqualift muffler. All the room under the head sink was already taken up!!
It seems that the Catalina quietly redesigned the top half of the hull and part of the engine bed to accommodate the 4 cylinder engine.
So when I mention to c34 owners - look at the space available - I do not jest.
My thoughts
I just removed the exhaust riser and water lift muffler, as said in previous posts the information on this site was invaluable. Using PB blaster and patience made the whole process go rather smoothly. My mechanic said the mounts were good but they are original OEM mounts and I plan to change them to K75s based on the positive comments made by others that have used them.
I have run into an issue, I removed the lag bolts from the front mounts and found one of the lag bolts was considerably shorter than the other three. It looks almost like the shorter one is broken but can't understand why it would be tapered at the end, I talked to the PO and he had the motor mounts changed a few years ago. I plan to head back to the boat later today to see if one of longer bolts will work in the hole that the shorter bolt came out of. When I closely examined the shorter bolt I can also see Epoxy on the end of it. My fear is there may be a lag bolt brokeN off in the hole. I don't want to have to pull the engine just to drill out that hole. It had previously been suggested to put a bundle of toothpicks what are your thoughts?
Ed, that shorter one doesn't look broken at all, just, uhm, shorter. No way to tell what or why any PO did something. Just try a longer one before you mount anything and see what works. Lag bolts are always pointy at the end, as are the others in you photos.
It looks pointed at the end but when examining it closer it looks modified. I plan to head the boat in the next couple days to try and see if one of the longer bolts goes in further. I talked to the PO and he had a shop change the mounts a few years ago and was not aware one of the bolts was shorter.
I do plan on using your "bunch of toothpicks" to give it more bite.
I need to disconnect the shaft from the engine so I can raise it in order to drill into the stringer. I have done a search for how to disconnect the flexible coupling looking for pictures but have not found any, there are explanations but it was not very clear. A pic is attached to show what my configuration looks like.
Also the boat is in the water.
Ed,
I have a different looking coupling but the theory is the same, and my shaft came out easily. But I think all you need to do it unbolt the coupling from the transmission flange, there's no need to get it off the shaft - which is the more tricky operation.
Ken
Usually there are studs coming out of the forward end of coupler attached to the transmission flange with nuts on the forward side of the transmission flange--unbolt there and slide coupling and shaft aft. However, those nuts may be "frozen" and require some soaking with penetrating oil--perhaps for days. Be careful not to get any penerating oil on the rear transmission seal. Use a Q-tip or small spot/pin oil bottle applicator.
Ed : There are 4 studs (as Noah said) that come out of your flexible coupling on the engine side. The studs go thru the holes on the 4 fingered coupler which is on the aft side of the transmission.
There should be 4 nuts that need to be removed so you can slide the coupling aft to disconnect it from the trans/engine
I'll guess that these nut are probably corroded to the studs and you'll need liquid wrench/blaster and maybe even heat to get them off.
A few thoughts
I made some progress.
Plan A: I bought the 90 deg drill adapter from Harbor Freight but it is too tight a fit to get a hole saw properly positioned to drill it out.
Next idea,
Plan B step 1: I loosened the large nuts on the stud coming out the top of the motor mount and was able to rotate the base just enough to give me access to the hole where the broken lag bolt is in the stringer. (front mount, front hole starboard side) I then took a Dremel and excavated the hole enough to see the top of the lag bolt, it is about 1 in below the top of the stringer. My plan is to use the Dremel and either grind it down or excavate enough to dig it out.. A long tedious process but I am determined.
Plan B step 2: I then plan to insert a thick plastic straw in the center of the hole and fill around the outside of the straw with epoxy (the void left by the straw should act just like a pilot hole).
Any thoughts on my plan?
Quote from: Ekutney on February 29, 2016, 07:30:51 PM
.....access to the hole where the broken lag bolt is in the stringer. (front mount, front hole starboard side) I then took a Dremel and excavated the hole enough to see the top of the lag bolt, it is about 1 in below the top of the stringer. My plan is to use the Dremel and either grind it down or excavate enough to dig it out.. A long tedious process but I am determined.
Ed, is there any room to cut a slit in the top of the "down-in-there" lag bolt and then use a screwdriver to back it out?
I was thinking the same thing, gonna stop by the hardware store tomorrow and see what type of Dremel bits I can find. One way or another that lag bolt is leaving the boat.
Any thoughts on the idea of using a thick plastic straw to act as a pilot hole for the new lag bolt.. Just not enough room to drill an adequate hole use a variety of methods.
You have two threads going here. See my response on your first thread. Good luck.
ed,
it may be too stuck for this to get it out, there are ez-outs for wood screws. The come in multiple diameters - one \end is a left hand drill bit (drill in reverse), the other end a graduated, left threaded post that grabs onto the drilled hole and backs out a screw.
For that matter even an EZ-Out made for a machine bolt might work.
You need to be very careful drilling because no doubt the shaft is broken off at an angle. But you might be able to grind it flat with a dremel in order to drill it.
kk
Ed
after 3o yrs of epoxy repairs - a caution. Epoxy resin alone (no additive) is both very hard and dense and can be difficult to thread into. It's like trying to thread a wood screw into a metal block -- it's difficult to get threads to 'cut in', and the density leaves no 'give' to displace material as tapered threads work their way into the hole. You're gonna want the diameter of the pilot hole to be equal to (or ever so slightly larger than) the minor diameter of the lag.
It might also be worthwhile to add a little West 407 low-density filler or Mas Cell-O-Fill to the resin mix. A gob of soft wax (like from a toilet bowl seal) would help the lag turn easier. I would do a trial run (different mixes) in say, a heavy cardboard tube like a carpet tube (a plastic solo cup might melt from the heat of reaction) to see how they accept a lag.
KK
Good news, the broken section of lag bolt has left the boat. I used a Dremel with a tungsten carbide bit, shaved it down then the 3500 RPM vibration got it to just pop out. I now have a hole which is as deep as the 2 in lag bolt.
I have read the suggestions & plan to experiment with a couple of recipes to see which works best. I plan to use a mixture of epoxy & filler to see if the straw concept works, a wooden 2x4 is going to be my test platform.
I also had another thought since I now have a bigger hole. Maybe using a threaded insert, just not sure if larger ones are available. I would have to make sure it is kept perfectly straight because once set it can't be moved. My concern is if a threaded bolt is off just a little then it will not sit flush when tightened.
I've attached a pic of a good lag bolt next to what I extracted.
That's great news, Ed. Congratulations. :clap :clap :clap
Ed,
COOL! A Sonicare to floss your stringer.
By threaded insert, do mean UNC thread? Or screw thread (e.g., like a lead shield)?
As I said below you can get a coupling nut -- available in standard or extra-long length, stainless or zinc. Wax up a bolt, and use it to insert the coupling nut and keep it plumb in the stringer hole. Soon after the resin kicks, back out the bolt leaving your threaded fastener.
Ken
I was thinking a UNC thread but the largest I found at WM was 1/4 20. I was thinking something larger that is close to the same size as the 3/8 lag bolt. I don"t want to use something smaller because it will leave too much movement in the slot of the motor mount.
WHat did you mean by a lead insert? I think lead would be too soft.
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
I was thinking a UNC thread but the largest I found at WM was 1/4 20. I was thinking something larger that is close to the same size as the 3/8 lag bolt. I don"t want to use something smaller because it will leave too much movement in the slot of the motor mount.
WHat did you mean by a lead insert? I think lead would be too soft.
When you use a lag bolt in, for instance concrete, one method is to drill and tap in what's called a lead shield. It's basically a lead anchor that expands against the hole as the tapered thread of the lag goes in. Some are a solid cylinder, some are two halves of a cylinder, held together by wire until the lag goes into it.
Google lead shield anchor in google images. The shield would be your "straw."
Coupling nuts come in 1/4", 5/16" 3/8" UNC ...... etc. Look through McMaster-Carr. You could tack weld a washer to its end to give more bite.
Or, why don't you think you could hold an upside down hex bolt/nut/washers plumb -- to make a stud?
If you have a nut/washer atop the stringer, that would help to plumb up the bolt.
kk
I was also thinking of using a bolt inserted head first with a flat washer and another bolt to give more strength but then I.d have to remove the mount.
Gonna hit HD & Lowes in the AM & see what they have.
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 08:39:04 PM
I was also thinking of using a bolt inserted head first with a flat washer and another bolt to give more strength but then I.d have to remove the mount.
Gonna hit HD & Lowes in the AM & see what they have.
Confuzed -- not about the box boxes... about two bolts?
A sunken bolt forming a stud will be very strong in epoxy/microfibers. As I said below it's worked for C30 replacements.
So would a lead anchor. Its deep ribs would provide very good grab.
(https://www.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/6799392-23.jpg)
lotsa options.
kk
If it were my boat, I would just mix-up a batch of West epoxy with milled fibers and let it cure. Then drill a new pilot hole and screw in a 2+ in. lag bolt. If your right angle drill won't get in close enough to drill pilot then get a cheap flexible drill chuck adapter or use your Dremel tool.
I was thinking the same thing about a washer to keep it plumb. Will let you know what works & include pics but hard to see 'down the rabbit hole'.
I'd go with epoxy with filler but am concerned the pilot hole would not be straight. There is not room with the engine in place.
The lead anchor makes good sense to be able to use the standard lag bolt.
So much work for something that started out with a loose lag bolt.
Ken,
Flat washer against the head of the bolt with another bolt to hold it tight against the head, no welder available.
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 09:09:43 PM
I was thinking the same thing about a washer to keep it plumb. Will let you know what works & include pics but hard to see 'down the rabbit hole'.
I'd go with epoxy with filler but am concerned the pilot hole would not be straight. There is not room with the engine in place.
The lead anchor makes good sense to be able to use the standard lag bolt.
So much work for something that started out with a loose lag bolt.
But think how rewarding the work is....... :rolling :shock:
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 09:19:35 PM
Ken,
Flat washer against the head of the bolt with another bolt to hold it tight against the head, no welder available.
I'm still not following your 2 bolts.
A nut tightened against a washer on a bolt?
Or a flat washer against the bottom of the coupling nut, with a short bolt to hold it in place?
kk
A nut tighten against a washer on a bolt
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 09:58:24 PM
A nut tighten against a washer on a bolt
ok, gotcha.
If you used a coupling nut rather than a standard nut, it would give you more resistance to the stud rotating, and the washer would give you resistance to the stud lifting. A wing nut (or a few) locked on there would also provide good rotating resistance.
kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 01, 2016, 10:09:11 PM
Quote from: Ekutney on March 01, 2016, 09:58:24 PM
A nut tighten against a washer on a bolt
ok, gotcha.
If you used a coupling nut rather than a standard nut, it would give you more resistance to the stud rotating, and the washer would give you resistance to the stud lifting. A wing nut (or a few) locked on there would also provide good rotating resistance.
kk
**** provided you lock the nuts tighty to the bolt - deform the thread with a centerpunch once it's tightened down. Wax or tape up the exposed thread just in case some resin gets on it.
Note 20 yrs from now the NO will be asking 'What the hell did the PO do here?' :rolling
My motor mounts are now secure to the stringer.
The rear mounts are thru bolted with 3/8 16 X 2 1/2 in long bolts for the rear holes & 2 3/4 in long for the forward holes.
The forward mounts are secure using SS 3/8 hanger bolts, lag bolt thread at one end and 3/8 16 thread at the other. I put 5200 in the holes first then used a jam nut setup to screw the bolts into the stringer.
A pic of the finished job. All 8 now look like this, the rear mounts are thru bolted & the front mounts use the hanger bolts. They are all secure with flat washers & lock washers with 3/8 16 nuts, the rear thru bolts for the rear have large flat washers.