Whewww...
After an adventurous week on the dry, I am back in the water today. Then we started the engine only to realize there's a little crack at the bottom portion of the left hose connection area. ( the one on the left = I meant the one closer to the center of the boat when you look from the door under the sink in the head)
Boatyard guys said that it could be repaired by a fiberglass guy. But then when I read this on Catalina Direct website I began to wonder...
Two ways I have seen an old muffler fail are:
1) The seam at the bottom edge can fail. This can sometimes be repaired by removing the muffler. After a thorough cleaning, you may be able to saturate the failed joint with WEST epoxy, clamp and allow to cure.
CAUTION! Inspect carefully after your repair. Carbon monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, AND DEADLY. If it leaks after your repair, YOU COULD KILL SOMEONE. We highly recommend the installation of a carbon monoxide detector.
2) The bond between the inlet tube and the box itself can fail. This typically occurs because the vibration of the engine is transmitted directly through a rigid hose to the stationary muffler. In this case, it is impossible to achieve a successful repair. Even with the installation of a new hump hose to help isolate the vibration (which we highly recommend), there will be much vibration transmitted to the fiberglass tube. To be strong enough, the repair would have to be made on the inside of the muffler where you have no access. In order to leave the enough fiberglass tube exposed for the hump hose, a repair from the outside would be too small to be secure enough given the serious safety concerns involved.
Are they really not fixable or are they trying to scare people to buy a $375 worth muffler?
Did anybody ever done this kind of repair on their mufflers?
jim
the aqualift mufflers (the old ones) are notorious for leaking -- I fixed mine twice (repaired, not "fixed" it, obviously) before I had a 'boom' and it started leaking badly at the base seams. I trashed it for a round, stainless steel muffler that has worked great for 20 years. There was nothing to mod the top in/out was essentially the same spacing no no changes in hose or anything (different set up on the hoses on my 30.)
The AL can be repaired --
I posed an article on the wiki of a 30 guy who did great repair, tough as nails now. Look it up under the engine topics.
I had somewhat crushed tubes on mine, and just happened to have some thin-wall aluminum tubing that slid snugly (tapped it) inside and reinforced the tubes.
You NEED a silicone hump hose if you don't have one. Read all the stuff on the site re: the engines and boat, electrical, etc.! I know it's not the fun part, but it will save you money and headache in the long run if you take care of all the mods and fixes. I know you said your electrician was up on the M25 engine, but I guarantee a case of beer doesn't know about everything you'll find on this site!!
post pics of the muffler, engine, electr. etc.
-kk
Case of beer sounds good now my friend!
I am not sure what he knows or not he is not available for the next 2 days. He was gone few hrs before my splash so, he didn't witness the leak.
I saw (read here) that some people used Vertex Vernalift brand mufflers. They seem the half price of Catalina Direct's price.
I currently have top in/top out model standard rectangle white Catalina one there.
I was wondering if the side in/top out or visa versa model makes any difference or should I only use top in/top out style Vernalift?
I am reading the posts regarding some of these issues but also I realized some of the posts from 2008 ! So, I was wondering if something else better, simpler, cheaper came along between 2008 and now? :D
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html
There are two muffler replacement articles in the Tech Notes, Ron Hill wrote one, I wrote the second one (February 2016).
You should also do a search on "muffler" if you haven't already. It's a popular and well covered subject.
You have many options.
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 07, 2016, 10:59:59 PM
1. I currently have top in/top out model standard rectangle white Catalina one there.
I was wondering if the side in/top out or visa versa model makes any difference or should I only use top in/top out style Vernalift?
2. So, I was wondering if something else better, simpler, cheaper came along between 2008 and now? :D
1. Hose location will determine port location for the muffler. So, follow the exhaust riser and see what fits, unless you want to redo your exhaust riser to fit a new muffler(!!!).
2. No.
Jim
AquaLift:
From what I've gathered on here, on the 34 the AL fit is more critical than like on my the 30 -- we have more options. I have a 30 MK-II owner (w/ M-25XP) who replaced his aqualift with a side in/top out Centek, and saved the AL -- there's nothing wrong with it (so far at least.) If you're interested I can have him get in touch (he's in SF bay).
On the 30 the locations of both the inlet and outlet are critical (OEM, the exhaust hose exits straight up thru a hole in the galley cabinet -- but that can be changed.) I don't know how the "out" routes on the 34, but maybe only the "in" is fixed? (ie, riser location.) Note that you may also be likely to have a bad riser, now or soon, it may leak. Best to check out the whole thing from exhaust flange to muffler out. There's recent posts re a leaking riser at the injection elbow and relaceing the riser.
if you can use the used muffler, you could do some fixes to reinforce it, and then it would be a switch out with no down time.
ken
Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?) This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.
The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose.
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!
a few quick thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 08, 2016, 01:06:56 PM
Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?) This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.
The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose.
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!
a few quick thought
Thanks Ron...
Today I decided to order a new Vernalift muffler but still I am keeping the original muffler came out of the boat.
The only question in my mind is that the Vernalift muffler is a little different style.
It's not rectangle but a circular one and also while the original is top in/out style, Vernalift we ordered is side in/top out...
I don't know if it will make any difference or not? I guess we'll find out tomorrow...
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 08, 2016, 07:46:10 PM
It's not rectangle but a circular one .... side in/top out...
I don't know if it will make any difference or not? I guess we'll find out tomorrow...
Ok, I'll be the one to say it. Jim Good luck with that one! Who's your mechanic?
Should lean on the forum when thinking of significantly different equipment than originally installed!
What's your plan to enter a side inlet muffler with a straight down riser, and maintain the correct elevation/down slope into the muffler?
Unless a side inlet muffler is on centerline behind an engine, yah increase the probability of seawater backflow into the exhaust valves, a cylinder hydrolock, and sea water in the oil pan -- unless the flange > riser > muffler route is a "reverse loop around" (i.e. inlet on the opposite side of the engine, like the attached design worked out with Centek -- BTW this IS NOT for C34, but for a C30 exhaust layout.)
kk
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 08, 2016, 01:06:56 PM
Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?) This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.
The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose.
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!
a few quick thought
First of all, thanks to all of you guys for the tremendous help you're offering.
You're an exquisite group of talent up here.
Now to the problem on hand; I don't know if I explained well but the hairline crack was at the bottom of the IN inlet where it meets the rectangular muffler body . Other than that there was no visible problem (leak) on the muffler body nor on the hoses.
Just that tiny hairline crack...
Tomorrow when I go to boat I'll take pictures and try to post here for you guys to see.
BTW I mentioned to my mechanic if the side IN will cause a problem with the riser issue and as far as I understand he said " there is enough room to adjust the IN hose... Now finding a "hump" hose tomorrow may be a problem...
We'll see!
If you want a can muffler, why not just use a top in top out stainless like you have?
(http://www.moyermarine.com/images/694.jpg)
kk
Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
good deal.
FYI the side entry cuts the storage volume significantly compared to the AL and other top on models, the AL squatty muffler was designed WAY oversized for that engine CID in order to store water so there's near zero chance of black flow. The side entry also provides a DIRECT water path back into the riser when tipped (water flows right out the inlet), compared to a top-in (which traps water inside the muffler when it's tipped.) On a powerboat this isn't much of an issue, however on a sailboat .....
I'll simply quote from centek when we went thru the effort of 'designing' the reverse entry layout to eliminate the significant risk of water backing into the riser when on a stbd heel, and leave it .... "YBYC."
Do you have a cross-sectional diagram/cut away of your side-in/top-out vernalift models versus the top-in/top-out models? We're doing an installation for an owner, and I presume there would be some loss in storage volume using the side in models – i.e. when heeling on a sailboat residual water could more easily back up into the riser, compared to the top-in models (where the entire muffler would have to be full in order for it to back up into the riser)?.
Unfortunately, on the Catalina 30 there's no room to place the Vernalift in line with the engine – the muffler sits to port.
One option I could see, is to rotate the Vernalift so that the side-in fitting is facing to port (away from the engine,) and use two 90 elbows as necessary to bring it back to the riser (I don't believe that a Centek 180 standard return will pass by the Vernalift diameter.) I don't believe that arrangement would increase backpressure so that it would be an issue.
Hi Ken,
Your logic is correct.
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 09, 2016, 11:13:29 PM
Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
Jim, could you please post a photo? Right here, too, not on your photo topic. I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding the side inlet geometry from the riser with a hump hose as you described. Thanks.
Stu, what I suspect is, the mechanic used a silicone 9-deg elbow from the riser into the side inlet, thus the highly flexible ell being somewhat similar to a 'hump". Nothing short of a nuclear explosion will hurt the glass-reinforced centek.
That muffler is 1-1/2" inlet and outlet -- as you know the exh hose is 1-5/8", so......... How s/he may have 'adapted' may be interesting to see. If he really wanted to use a side inlet, he should have used 1500003, the 1-5/8" in/out model. The replacement should have been a centek 1-5/8" top in/top out.
kk
quote author=Stu Jackson link=topic=9252.msg67995#msg67995 date=1481382338]
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 09, 2016, 11:13:29 PM
Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
Jim, could you please post a photo? Right here, too, not on your photo topic. I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding the side inlet geometry from the riser with a hump hose as you described. Thanks.
[/quote]
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 10, 2016, 07:27:13 PM
Stu, what I suspect is, the mechanic used a silicone 9-deg elbow from the riser into the side inlet, thus the highly flexible ell being somewhat similar to a 'hump". Nothing short of a nuclear explosion will hurt the glass-reinforced centek.
That muffler is 1-1/2" inlet and outlet -- as you know the exh hose is 1-5/8", so......... How s/he may have 'adapted' may be interesting to see. If he really wanted to use a side inlet, he should have used 1500003, the 1-5/8" in/out model. The replacement should have been a centek 1-5/8" top in/top out.
kk
quote author=Stu Jackson link=topic=9252.msg67995#msg67995 date=1481382338]
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 09, 2016, 11:13:29 PM
Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
Jim, could you please post a photo? Right here, too, not on your photo topic. I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding the side inlet geometry from the riser with a hump hose as you described. Thanks.
[/quote]
There ya go gentlemen! :thumb:
Thanks for the photo, Jim. Looks greast.
Except...
For the past 25 or more years, we have been trying against all odds to hammer home the IMPORTANCE of using blue HUMP HOSE between the exhaust riser and the muffle inlet. Regardless of what type of muffler.
The concept is to avoid transferring vibration from the riser to the inlet port.
Your boat, your choice. :D
But ITWMB I'd remove that black vertical hose and replace it with hump hose. Available from Catalina Direct. Years ago we had a lot of trouble finding it. Nowadays, not so much. Your muffler will ast a lot longer.
That said, could you fill us in on more than just the specific model and more details about the install? Like supports, etc. It would make a great Tech Note article. You could become an instant rock star! :clap :clap :clap
Thanks and again, nice work.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 11, 2016, 09:32:34 PM
Thanks for the photo, Jim. Looks greast.
Except...
For the past 25 or more years, we have been trying against all odds to hammer home the IMPORTANCE of using blue HUMP HOSE between the exhaust riser and the muffle inlet. Regardless of what type of muffler.
The concept is to avoid transferring vibration from the riser to the inlet port.
Your boat, your choice. :D
But ITWMB I'd remove that black vertical hose and replace it with hump hose. Available from Catalina Direct. Years ago we had a lot of trouble finding it. Nowadays, not so much. Your muffler will ast a lot longer.
That said, could you fill us in on more than just the specific model and more details about the install? Like supports, etc. It would make a great Tech Note article. You could become an instant rock star! :clap :clap :clap
Thanks and again, nice work.
Thanks for the kind words Stu... I will check with the blue hump hose... Just to see if it's any difference than what we used.
One thing I would like to repeat again in case you missed it in my earlier post; that small 90 elbow hose is really soft and nothing like the upright black hard one. So, the idea we came up with our genius(!) engineering minds 8) was that the any vibration caused by the engine and relayed thru riser/hard upright hose will be diminish when it hits the softer 90 elbow.
Also the upright portion of the 90 elbow absorbs most of the vibration and the remaining minuscule amount of vibration is mostly diminished where 90 elbow contacts the muffler.
When engine running I checked by touching that soft 90 elbow and I was feeling more vibration on my knees (because of the position I was in) than on my fingers.
But again I'll check on your advice.
Thanks,
Stu
It looks like it may be an EPDM (possibly silicone) elbow -- pretty soft and flexible. The hump hose (with the hump) helps prevent transferring lateral movement. I'd think this elbow would be about 80% as good at that, though using a silicone hose above the elbow would add that 20%.
Jim,
Why didn't the mechanic just use a top-in -- considering that you could drop the hose right in?
Here's the hump hose in use in Paul's blog:
http://www.sailingeximius.com/2016/07/exhasted-part-ii.html
If you happen do any adjusting, flip one clamp on the outlet so the worm dives oppose one another. Also, the AWAB or ABA style clamps are SO much better for marine use, it's worth their cost to replace with them if for any reason you have your hands on a hose clamp. There's sources for discounts so you can buy ahead and save them for use, so don't have to pay WM prices.
-ken
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 11, 2016, 09:32:34 PM
Thanks for the photo, Jim. Looks greast.
Except...
For the past 25 or more years, we have been trying against all odds to hammer home the IMPORTANCE of using blue HUMP HOSE between the exhaust riser and the muffle inlet. Regardless of what type of muffler.
The concept is to avoid transferring vibration from the riser to the inlet port.
Your boat, your choice. :D
But ITWMB I'd remove that black vertical hose and replace it with hump hose. Available from Catalina Direct. Years ago we had a lot of trouble finding it. Nowadays, not so much. Your muffler will ast a lot longer.
That said, could you fill us in on more than just the specific model and more details about the install? Like supports, etc. It would make a great Tech Note article. You could become an instant rock star! :clap :clap :clap
Thanks and again, nice work.
Oh, Jim -- one thing I forgot to mention is that you'll find the drain on the Centek muffler is a PITA compared to the Aqualift.
There's no petcock, just a 1/4" hex flange head screw threaded into the base that you must fully remove -- be ultra careful to not tighten it too much or cross the threads. I have talked to the Centek engineer trying to get them to upgrade the drain -- the reply was, basically, "Not in our lifetime."
ken
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 11, 2016, 09:52:31 PM
One thing I would like to repeat again in case you missed it in my earlier post; that small 90 elbow hose is really soft and nothing like the upright black hard one.
You mean this one?
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 11, 2016, 09:52:31 PMAlso 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
Always get a chuckle out of those complex engineering terms and references. :D :D :D :D
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 12, 2016, 05:45:58 AM
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 11, 2016, 09:52:31 PM
One thing I would like to repeat again in case you missed it in my earlier post; that small 90 elbow hose is really soft and nothing like the upright black hard one.
You mean this one?
Quote from: Capt.Jim on December 11, 2016, 09:52:31 PMAlso 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.
Always get a chuckle out of those complex engineering terms and references. :D :D :D :D
Hey, it's not easy to be an expert in explaining things! :thumb:
Jim : Once you get the engine running in the water you'll have to watch your "Softy Hose" to make sure it holds up.
You'll also find out if you new muffler has enough capacity to handle the flow back of raw water from the 17ft exhaust hose when the engine is shut down.
A few thoughts
Ron, where's the high spill-over spot in the exhaust hose on the 34? On the 30 its below the coming in the cockpit locker -- I'd guess maybe 2/3 the way along the hose route (also about 17 feet.)
-ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 13, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Ron, where's the high spill-over spot in the exhaust hose on the 34? On the 30 its below the coming in the cockpit locker -- I'd guess maybe 2/3 the way along the hose route (also about 17 feet.)
-ken
Pretty much the same.
Ken : That's the problem - that "spill over point" all depends on the longitudinal pitch of the boat.
The early 1986 C34 had no aft water tank! 100 ft of chain in the anchor locker on another boat! Two anchors on another.
The C34 MK 1 exhaust hose runs up from the muffler, over the fuel tank just under the coming for the genoa winch and turns down about the engine instrument panel - I'd guess 3/4 of the 17ft length.
Again - it all depends on the pitch of the boat.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 14, 2016, 08:49:43 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 13, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Ron, where's the high spill-over spot in the exhaust hose on the 34? On the 30 its below the coming in the cockpit locker -- I'd guess maybe 2/3 the way along the hose route (also about 17 feet.)
-ken
Pretty much the same.
Photos here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6760.msg45302.html#msg4530 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6760.msg45302.html#msg4530)2
Exhaust Hose with Pictures.
Highest in the port locker above the fuel tank after it runs up from the muffler, then runs aft high, then down to the transom exit.
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 14, 2016, 08:51:13 AM
Ken : That's the problem - that "spill over point" all depends on the longitudinal pitch of the boat.
The early 1986 C34 had no aft water tank! 100 ft of chain in the anchor locker on another boat! Two anchors on another.
The C34 MK 1 exhaust hose runs up from the muffler, over the fuel tank just under the coming for the genoa winch and turns down about the engine instrument panel - I'd guess 3/4 of the 17ft length.
Again - it all depends on the pitch of the boat.
Ron,
That route is pretty much the same as the 30 (sans fuel tank) -- and heads south to mid-stern right about at the panel.
It 'seems' that it would be an improvement to turn the hose down, as soon as it hits the coming. Therefore creating one, defined spill-over point, as forward as possible. Then the pitch wouldn't much matter. Not seeing what's in the way, could it run at a 45, with a 45 elbow if necessary at the exit?
Some 30s had a check valve in the sail locker.
ken
Ken ; Nice idea, but don't think it will work on a MK1 C34, as the hose needs to stay high all thru the port side lazerette.
I only mentioned the capacity of the muffler - as I believe it is something to at least consider!!
I believe that that is why Gerry Douglas made such a large capacity Aqua Lift muffler. However, I'm sure Gerry could have designed a smaller muffler at a lesser cost - which would have made Frank happier!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 14, 2016, 02:21:23 PM
but don't think it will work on a MK1 C34, as the hose needs to stay high all thru the port side lazerette.
OK, I'll bite. Why?
Quote
I only mentioned the capacity of the muffler - as I believe it is something to at least consider!!
I believe that that is why Gerry Douglas made such a large capacity Aqua Lift muffler. However, I'm sure Gerry could have designed a smaller muffler
Absolutely -- the tiny 8" dia muffler is plenty large enough for the 3-cyl diesel according to Centek's Engineer. Mine is 8" and has been operating just fine for 20 years. Not having the location to have a high loop right off the muffler is what drove the oversize AL.
But I doubt a smaller would save much. $2.00 in fiberglass -- at the time. -- it was probably mostly labor cost.
ken
Ken : You need to look at a C34 MK1s factory routing of the exhaust hose.
Maybe you would have rerouted it differently?
Too bad that Gerry Douglas didn't consult Centek's engineering before designing the C34 muffler.
Out
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 15, 2016, 01:34:48 PM
Ken : You need to look at a C34 MK1s factory routing of the exhaust hose.
Ron:
I'm trying to visualize it -- but don't have one to look at. Why does it need to be high all the way thru the port locker? It seems to be a very similar run as mine, which could be dropped down low after the initial rise high under the coming. Is there something stopping it from being dropped down lower once it hits the high spot?
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 15, 2016, 01:47:38 PM
I'm trying to visualize it -- but don't have one to look at. Why does it need to be high all the way thru the port locker? It seems to be a very similar run as mine, which could be dropped down low after the initial rise high under the coming. Is there something stopping it from being dropped down lower once it hits the high spot?
I linked to a picture in one of my last posts. One showed my son in the port locker, another showed the hose routing.
The REASON is that CY put the HOLE at the aft end high up, and then it drops down to the transom exit thru hull. Those hoses aren't FULL of water at any time anyway. Not a big deal.
Thanks Stu,
I saw the "end", and the "beginning", just didn't see the "middle" and why the hose couldn't be dropped down. It's not a big deal w/ the Aqualift with it's over capacity. But with the comparitively tiny capacity of the 8" roundm, and being a side-inny, half the capacity of a top-inny, IIWMB I'd drill a new hole thru the locker near the aft bottom, drop the hose down at a 45 angle, and assure that the absolute minimum of water is left in the hose at any time.
"Belt and suspenders," .....or s*it happens .... or, hydrolock, *ouch*
kk
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 15, 2016, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 15, 2016, 01:47:38 PM
I'm trying to visualize it -- but don't have one to look at. Why does it need to be high all the way thru the port locker? It seems to be a very similar run as mine, which could be dropped down low after the initial rise high under the coming. Is there something stopping it from being dropped down lower once it hits the high spot?
I linked to a picture in one of my last posts. One showed my son in the port loc ker, another shoed the hose routing.
The REASON is that CY put the HOLE at the aft end high up, and then it drops down to the transom exit thru hull. Those hoses aren't FULL of water at any time anyway. Not a big deal.
Ken : Unlike a C30, the exhaust of a C34 exists thru the hull, not the transom.
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 16, 2016, 12:37:17 PM
Ken : Unlike a C30, the exhaust of a C34 exists thru the hull, not the transom.
A thought
Thanks for the clarification, Ron. Yeah I finally realized that from Stu's last pic (blue seawater showing thru :D )
That really doesn't affect how it's run thru the sail locker, and making that mod would greatly inhibit any water draining back to the muffler from, as you say, the variable pitch of the boat and what might end up in the "long" horizontal run in the locker.) At the thru hull, you'd just use an elbow. As I say, just belt and suspenders with a tiny muffler, which seems to be a viable option per Jim's install.
-k
Cockpit locker and aft cabin is different then a C30 too. No sail locker. A big fuel tank in the way. They routed it the only way possible/practical as far as I can see. Don't know why folks would not opt for OEM replacement muffler (for a couple of hundred bucks more) instead of spending a lot of brain damage and labor to trying to re-invent the wheel---one that has worked pretty well as is. 20+ years on a $375 muffler seems like a pretty good value to me.
Noah,
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the locker layout -- I have conflicting descriptions. From Stu's photos and the description of rhe route. it looked like the hose could drop down (say at a 45 angle) after it hits the high spot right above the entry into the locker? n'est pas?
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6760.0;attach=3195;image)
For whatever reason (money?) Jim didn't, so it just begged the question is there a way to address Ron's comment about water back flowing to the small 8" muffler (especially it being a side-inny.) FWIW, the Centek is a MUCH better muffler, quality wise.
ken
Quote from: Noah on December 16, 2016, 03:50:17 PM
Cockpit locker and aft cabin is different then a C30 too. No sail locker. A big fuel tank in the way. They routed it the only way possible/practical as far as I can see. Don't know why folks would not opt for OEM replacement muffler (for a couple of hundred bucks more) instead of spending a lot of brain damage and labor to trying to re-invent the wheel---one that has worked pretty well as is. 20+ years on a $375 muffler seems like a pretty good value to me.
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 16, 2016, 04:01:13 PM
Noah,
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the locker layout -- I have conflicting descriptions. From Stu's photos and the description of rhe route. it looked like the hose could drop down (say at a 45 angle) after it hits the high spot right above the entry into the locker? n'est pas?
OK, now follow that hose more to the left as it exits the picture. About two feet aft to the left side of the picture is the "end" of the port locker, inside, which consists of a vertical piece of painted plywood with a hole in it. That hole is as high up as it can be. The hose goes through that hole. After the hole and the vertical plywood is the lazarette under the helmsman seat. The first time the hose has an opportunity to go down is once it gets into the lazarette.
Yes, they could have drilled the hole in the aft end lower, but that would have messed up storage in the port locker.
***********
Re: volume of water in riser and the different mufflers. I understand the point, Ken, but it would be extremely helpful to share engineering.
IIRC, my raw water intake hose is 1/2" and 5/8" from the rw pump to the HX and then on to the exhaust riser nipple. Assuming that those hoses are full, the 1 5/8" hose then would be a lot less full of water. Also, if IIRC, the rw pump could be all of maybe 6 gpm. So, when the engine shuts down, it appears, prior to even a rigorous engineering analysis, that there simply can't be a whole lot of water in say, 10 feet of that 17 foot exhaust hose. Then, as you said, compare that to the volume of the muffler.
My point is that we shouldn't be giving Jim any reasons for concern about his new muffler installation, nor giving him any sleepless nights worrying about having to drop the aft end of his hose in his port locker. :D
Last year just about this time of year I purchased my boat and in the Feb/Mar timeframe started after the to do list. I replaced the riser, muffler & exhaust hose. I went with the OEM muffler because like others have the previous one lasted 30 yrs. The exhaust hose is 17 ft long, it runs from the muffler up into the port cockpit locker (a hole at each end at the outward port side of the locker) then out into the port side of the lazarette then to the transom. There is a high point loop in the transom to prevent backflow in a following sea. I ran the exhaust hose from the port cockpit locker; first ran it through the hole going fwd into the head locker then connected to the muffler. Next ran it through the aft hole in the port cockpit locker into the lazarette then to the thru hull. I replaced the original thru hull with a stainless steel one to make sure all components were solid. I can say that of ALL the hoses I replaced on the boat this was the most difficult, although I have not done the pumpout hose YET. Getting and out of the port cockpit locker is not easy, once inside there is plenty of room to move around but getting in & out takes a bit of flexibility, not easy for a 6 ft 250 lb 60 yr old guy. It is also difficult working with the wire reinforced exhaust hose, I have rubber coated work gloves that make handling/twisting the hose much easier (they provide a good grip). I made sure the hose was properly positioned by turning & twisting it into position, this prevented any stress points. I used tied wraps to fasten it in three places, one inside the head locker near the muffler, one inside the port cockpit locker & one on the transom bulkhead. I did not have to but it gave me additional confidence that no matter what the hose would not move around.
Stu
I see what you mean about the RW pump flow volume. It was centek that had first raised the issue of potential back flow using the lower volume side inlet type with a long hose (no high loop right behind the muffler.) It seemed logical to me. I hadn't estimated the possible water volume. Their other issue was the hose getting filled with the rail buried and the spillover point being distant from the muffler.
Ken
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 17, 2016, 09:33:40 AMStu
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 16, 2016, 04:01:13 PM
Noah,
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the locker layout -- I have conflicting descriptions. From Stu's photos and the description of rhe route. it looked like the hose could drop down (say at a 45 angle) after it hits the high spot right above the entry into the locker? n'est pas?
OK, now follow that hose more to the left as it exits the picture. About two feet aft to the left side of the picture is the "end" of the port locker, inside, which consists of a vertical piece of painted plywood with a hole in it. That hole is as high up as it can be. The hose goes through that hole. After the hole and the vertical plywood is the lazarette under the helmsman seat. The first time the hose has an opportunity to go down is once it gets into the lazarette.
Yes, they could have drilled the hole in the aft end lower, but that would have messed up storage in the port locker.
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Re: volume of water in riser and the different mufflers. I understand the point, Ken, but it would be extremely helpful to share engineering.
IIRC, my raw water intake hose is 1/2" and 5/8" from the rw pump to the HX and then on to the exhaust riser nipple. Assuming that those hoses are full, the 1 5/8" hose then would be a lot less full of water. Also, if IIRC, the rw pump could be all of maybe 6 gpm. So, when the engine shuts down, it appears, prior to even a rigorous engineering analysis, that there simply can't be a whole lot of water in say, 10 feet of that 17 foot exhaust hose. Then, as you said, compare that to the volume of the muffler.
My point is that we shouldn't be giving Jim any reasons for concern about his new muffler installation, nor giving him any sleepless nights worrying about having to drop the aft end of his hose in his port locker. :D
Guys : We surely have beaten this one thread to where you could even say
it's "thread bare". :rolling
Hey guys,
Just to let you know that I wasn't ignoring you guys. Just sailing around and then staying onboard doing some other maintenance and organizing the buckets loads of crap around the boat.
You know the new boat deal.
It takes 10-15 minutes each time to locate my flashlight or screwdriver since nothing yet have a dedicated spot... But it is getting there.
So far no backflow from the exhaust...
Glad your non OEM setup is working. I had thought about going the same route but ended up replacing my unit with components from Catalina Direct, exhaust riser & water lift muffler including the exhaust hose (all 17 ft of it). Did it myself and opted to go that route to keep from doing any modifications, it was straight forward and required no thinking... After all the previous setup lasted 30 years in my case. Yes, only the riser had been changed over ten years ago according to the PO. Envy you Jim, sailing this time of year in MD is a frigid experience... 26 deg this AM.