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#1
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 10:42:35 PM
@High Anxiety

QuoteThe aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned it
I've previously posted about my same experience re: the fingertight aft nut and keel bedding so many times that my head hurts every time I repost about it.


QuoteThe washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal;
Are you thinking that CTY bolted up the keel nuts/washers into wet gelcoat?  Doesn't seem logical to me.  What does, is the known issue on C-30s of torquing the nuts so many times that the washers compress the glass and bury themselves in the gelcoat.


QuoteWhether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.

hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel. 
IIWMB my hem/haw would not be whether to drop the keel -- rather, it would be whether to investigate the condition of the joint right now or just go sailing and do it fall '24 / spring '25.  Nothing is going to change before then and the keel will not fall off.

Like engines, plumbing, electrical, and other systems on a yacht: one should not play Whack-a-Mole and willy-nilly replace/fix before one troubleshoots, Troubleshoots, TROUBLESHOOTs. 
(Then play "more-informed" Whack-a-Mole.)


Quotepossible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything right

Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat. 
Removing the keel is lightyears away from being rocket science. 
If I did it with no previous experience in dismembering the appendage, (IMO only) any other idiot like me **should** also be able to.
It's nasty, laborious (but not "difficult") work. 
Reattaching it takes brain power (unfortunately I learned that the hard way.)

That said I'm unsure whether I would trust the yard with anything.  Someone who blocks jack stands with 2x4s has (IMO only) questionable knowledge/conscientiousness and at worst doesn't care about their customers' yachts.  Gimmeabreak -- don't they have lumber yards in ME?


Quotecheck torque often.
See above for (IMO) the danger of too-often and too-tighting of the keel nuts.
Keel nuts that are 40 ft-lbs shy do not cause the Catalina smile.

Previous info about my "no aft smile" and the loose aft nut (in no particular order):

https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/search?d=0&ev=0&p=recentpostdate%2Fsticky%2C%2C%2522keel%2522+AND+carbide%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0&ct=1&startdate=&enddate=

https://www.sailnet.com/posts/2051801875/
https://www.sailnet.com/posts/319785/

https://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=%22kwkloeber%22%20%22keel%22%20joint%20OR%20bedding%20OR%20carbide

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=97345
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=82156
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=81134
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=74413
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=71726
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67529

My saga about reattaching the keel:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67822
#2
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 08:15:15 PM
Quotewater coming FROM inside.

That's what attacks and eats up the "mung" keel bedding!
Been there, done that. 
Got the Tee shirt (and N-95 respirator.) 
#3
Main Message Board / Re: engine control cable
Last post by Jack Morrison - Today at 04:52:17 PM
Thanks, Catalina Direct has provided the required installation instructions.
#4
Main Message Board / Re: engine control cable
Last post by Jack Morrison - Today at 04:29:44 PM
Thanks! I'll check it out. Any advice regarding the process to install the cable myself?
#5
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by Noah - Today at 04:25:00 PM
Never thought about water coming FROM inside. I question that worry. I never consider gooping up bolts in the bilge years after keel install. Maybe? However, it is a "known" issue discussed here in the past, that you should remove any gelcoat from around the washers and nuts to prevent oxygen starvation which could cause corrosion.
#6
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by High Current - Today at 03:27:12 PM
Well, spring is here, and like all good boat projects, this one quickly got out of hand...

If you remember, I decided that sealing the "smile" from the outside and the bolt from the inside would be my course of action.  But I decided to seal the other bolts while I was at it.  The first thing I did was check torque and I discovered that only one nut required >20 ft-lb to tighten; even that one required less than 40  :shock:   The aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned it while I was scooping the literal sludge out of that compartment.  I strongly suspect, based on the undisturbed gelcoat over the washers, and based on the aforementioned sludge, that this is the first time in 34 years anyone gave these bolts any thought.

Next I removed all the bolts and cleaned under the washers to ensure I would get a good seal with Sikaflex.  This was a BIG project involving copious amounts of degreaser, acetone, and elbow grease.  The washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal; I would say at least 50% of the surface area under each washer was a void.  There was no sealant around the nut / threads.  These voids were filled with grease and led to mild corrosion of the undersides of the washers.  The washer for the rearmost bolt, however, is almost completely gone, which explains why its nut (which was also heavily corroded) was so loose.  Luckily the stud appears mostly intact.  Around the studs I could see where bedding had squeezed into the holes from below.  Although it didn't fill any of them completely, it should have protected most of the invisible part of the stud from corrosion - if it's intact.  Whether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.

So I am once again hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel.  On the one hand, I want to be comfortable that no further ingress is possible, and only a fresh bedding job above *and* below can make it a certainty.  Likewise, if the bedding is compromised, dropping the keel is the only sure way to dry it out before I seal it from above.  I observed some cracks much lower on the keel that had weeped some and had me worried, but I went back to a picture of haul-out and found they were already there.  Still, it does make me wonder if water can seep up behind the fairing and get to the keel-hull joint even if it looks solid.

On the other hand, the keel is clearly attached quite firmly if it managed not to crack more than it did with the bolts so loose.  That speaks to possible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything right; a botched repair could create problem with something that appears solid now.  Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat.  If the bedding hasn't failed I'm better off leaving it as-is.  But with the bolts having all been so loose...what are the chances?

It is bizarre to me that Catalina apparently did not seal the bolts from the top; for all the concern about sea water getting in from below, it seems too easy for water (including salt from the stuffing box) to compromise the top portion of the bolts.  Did they not realize crevice corrosion existed back in 1990?

I also think there's a compelling correlation between grease and corrosion.  For all that the studs look OK below the (bilge) water line, there's some rust and pitting at/above the water line on some of them.  If grease traps in water and keeps out oxygen, I could certainly see it facilitating crevice corrosion. 

Moral of the story:  keep your bilge clean, seal your bolts from the inside if you haven't already, and check torque often.  Also, take lots of pictures: you never know when you might be wanting that "before" photo.
#7
Main Message Board / Re: "Leaking" fiberglass hull
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 09:23:57 AM
Quote from: LogoFreak on Yesterday at 09:25:52 PMLooks to me like water intrusion into hull, any blisters anywhere else? Was the hull sealed with an epoxy barrier coat?

The owner didn't say anything about blisters.  The whole area was peeling paint (and possibly barrier?) which led to him investigating it and grinding it back.

Sounded like an inside-out rather than an outside-in situation. 
But even if it was blistering due to intrusion, it wouldn't have been immersed in pink antifreeze to have that now dripping back out.
Odd!
#8
Main Message Board / Re: Beta Marine Engine repower
Last post by LogoFreak - Yesterday at 09:47:13 PM
I second that, replacing with a beta 25 makes no sense to me, it's undersized for a 34 footer.
#9
Main Message Board / Re: Adjust the cable tension f...
Last post by LogoFreak - Yesterday at 09:30:59 PM
I've filled in those "skag dimples", used closed cell expanding foam and layed up glass over those areas. Switching the stainless steel cables for dyneema instead to not have dissimilar metals (SS cables/aluminium quadrant).
#10
Main Message Board / Re: "Leaking" fiberglass hull
Last post by LogoFreak - Yesterday at 09:25:52 PM
Looks to me like water intrusion into hull, any blisters anywhere else? Was the hull sealed with an epoxy barrier coat?