A friend told me that he kept the transmission in gear when he turned his motor off because he was told his 34 would sail better with motor in gear rather than in neutral. Any thoughts?
That's news to me, but maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years.
Every boat that we've had or that I've sailed on, always put the engine in neutral when sailing without the engine on. In may ways, when I turn the engine on again I don't want it to be accidentally in gear.
Chuck : If you sail with the transmission in neutral you'll have less drag from a turning prop, but added wear on the cutless bearing.
Hurth stipulates NOT to leave the transmission in FWD while sailing.
You can leave the transmission in reverse while sailing like most of us do. The racers however, leave theirs in neutral for that little bit more speed!!
A few thoughts
Chuck,
I had a 2 blade folding prop on my 30 and have a 3 blade folding on my 34. I have always shifted into reverse to lock the shaft after turning the engine off.
WOW!! I thought the correct thing to do was to put the transmission into neutral. I've been doing that all along. If however, the better alternative is to put the transmission into reverse as in what Ron says. That's' what I'll be doing from now on. I'm not that big into racing. :abd:
I like neutral. After a long day of sailing, I may forget to go to neutral to start the engine. I know some transmissions are to be set in reverse while sailing or extra wear may happen. I have a feathering prop, transmission in reverse for a while to set the prop, then into neutral.
Jim
The new ( finally) Beta manual states that the transmission must be put in reverse for sailing to avoid excessive wear.
Hi,
Best to check YOUR manual.
Some manufacturer will mention to put in reverse, and some to leave in neutral.
Better to go with the recommendation of manufacturer.
In my manual it mention to leave in neutral.
Mine says reverse.
Guys : On our web site (WiKi) I posted the big Red tag that Hurth sent with their transmission!!
It says the same thing as in you M25XP Owners Manual! Take time to read it!!
Quote from: Chuck.Philips on August 25, 2013, 04:12:56 PM
A friend told me that he kept the transmission in gear...
There are two gears. Which one?
Here's what Ron keeps reminding skippers about:
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Right_Transmission_Gear_for_Sailing
Crap,
I've been in sailing in forward all summer thinking I'm doing the right thing by not being in neutral.
If you ever sell your boat, please take a moment to copy my previous link and leave it on the boat for the next skipper!
Thanks for the input everyone. On my sail to Catalina next week, I will certainly put the transmission in reverse.
Chuck
Sometimes I feel like such a NOOB around here... :roll:
But I always seem to come away a bit more knowledgeable 8)
That being said I guess one could surmise the following:
While under sail and the engine not running:
NEVER leave the transmission in FORWARD gear.
leaving the transmission in NEUTRAL is not exactly wrong but could be a cause of un-needed wear on the cutlass bearing.
Leaving the transmission in REVERSE is the most preferred option.
My education continues :abd:
Kevin, and other "new" skippers",
We developed a sticky topic called "Quick Start - Too Much Information on this website" http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5260.0.html
In that text we noted that there IS a LOT of stuff!!! We also included:
"I estimate it might take maybe a total of all of four hours of your time to read the Table of Contents for the FAQ Page , Projects Page, download and read the Knowledgebase, OR read the Tech wiki contents pages (just click on "C34 Tech wiki" at the top of each page of this Message Board). It'd be a great start for each of you."
I know you all have "real lives", but urge you to take a few minutes to read that link, and simply read the "Headlines" from those important links so that you can help yourselves maintain your boats.
Kenin : It's not a Better and Best situation between locked in reverse and leaving the transmission in nuteral! It's Your choice.
It is an aw-#### if you leave the transmission in forward while sailing or being towed!!
I've always left it in reverse but thought it was more the transmission bearing issue rather than the cutlass.
Randy : I'm not a transmission Guru, but I believe that the transmission in FWD while the boat is moving forward (engine off) has to do with slippage/wear on "clutch" plates.
Quote from: captran on August 27, 2013, 11:01:05 AM
I've always left it in reverse but thought it was more the transmission bearing issue rather than the cutlass.
It doesn't blinking matter.
Put it in reverse all the time, or lock your shaft like Ray Irvine does for racing.
C'mon, skippers, this is not rocket science.
My read (for the past 15 years, and since this issue was first posted over 10 years ago in the old FAQs - now the C34 Tech wiki under engines) is that when it is not in reverse, it makes noise. So I stop the noise by putting it reverse. From everything that's been available to read about this issue, it's better for the transmission.
Nothing has changed about that for the past 26 years.
Your boat, your choice.
Easy..... :D
FREE WILL!
It allows us to decide how we want to do it
Foward----------> NO NO
Neutral----------> adds noise, extra parts movement that most likely results in additional wear
Reverse---------> Cost us that fraction of a knot in speed and performance.
My Allmand had a new M4-30/trans upgrade right before I bought it. Manual stated "lock in reverse" while under sail.
If I was vain enough to believe and state that the loss of speed could be indentified while I'm sailing my boat with my transmission locked in reverse I would also be a liar. I'm just not that good. The rest of you may just be that much better of a sailer than me.
I have, and will continue to lock my trans in reverse while under sail.
Steve
"Forget-Me-Knot" 34' Hull 854
visit us at www.ocontoyachtclub.com (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.com)
Guys : I agree with most comments and Stu - anything changed in the last 26 years!??!
What a stupid thread this has been!!
It's NOT stupid.
It might be repetitious, but I'm sure glad skippers are still asking.
Thanks to your posting, Ron, we can ALWAYS link to it.
I second the "Not Stupid" vote. I just learned I've been doing it wrong all summer. Always thought in gear, forward or reverse, was better than neutral. Now I know forward is a no-no.
Sorry Guys : I guess this thread is not so stupid when you consider that Many new owners of a C34 tend not to read their owners manual!!
Nor do they heed Catalina's placard (just below the engine instrument panel on a MK I) that says :
"To read the owner manual before operating this vessel".
(Guess the previous owner must have removed that common sense placard)
Some time the truth hurts. A thought
If we stopped talking or repeating stuff that we have already gone over, this place would be church quiet.
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 31, 2013, 01:45:30 PM
Sorry Guys : I guess this thread is not so stupid when you consider that Many new owners of a C34 tend not to read their owners manual!!
Nor do they heed Catalina's placard (just below the engine instrument panel on a MK I) that says :
"To read the owner manual before operating this vessel".
(Guess the previous owner must have removed that common sense placard)
Some time the truth hurts. A thought
Hi,
Actualy I did read it when got our boat. Nicely found on this site. :thumb:
But it also mentioned that it is not a must to lock the shaft when sailing, so I always left it in neutral.
If it is a better practice to lock it, then here is a nice place to talk about it. :D
Obvious point perhaps, but all of this assumes that you have a fixed prop. If you have a folding or feathering prop, you have to put the transmission into reverse, at least initially, in order to close/rotate the blades. Once the blades close/rotate, you could then shift back to neutral if you were worried about starting in reverse by accident (been there, done that, don't want to do it again) and there should be little concern about cutlass bearing wear given that the prop won't rotate (or won't rotate very much) with the water flow.
Clay, I agree. However, I have "made the mistake of starting gear" and it starts and I wonder why I'm not going where I thought I should.
Hasn't broken anything.
Yet.
Once or twice in 15 years.
Kinda like the "going aground" thingy... :abd:
I have found conflicting information about the transmission.
In one place it says leave the trans in reverse, in another it says leave the trans in neutral.
When on the hard if you put your trans in forward or reverse you cannot turn the prop, and the water running at 6 knots is not going to turn the prop either. So I fail to see why damage would occur in either gear.
As for running in neutral there is no stress on the cutless bearing like there is when running in gear at 2000 rpm engine/1000 rpm prop.( the gear reduction is 2:1)
You'd be lucky to get 200 rpm with the prop free wheeling, and if you think you never need to replace the cutless then you have a lot to learn. It's irrelevant that the prop free wheels in the "wear on the cutless bearing" department.
In my opinion it is very likely it does not matter what you do with the shifter while sailing, with one exception... don't start the engine with the trans in gear. Hurth put out recommendations and Universal is contrary... but neither explain the basis of their claim.
I free wheel in neutral while sailing.... it's not a big deal to change a cutless every 5 years, you should anyway, and the oil in the trans is thrown around while rotating, as far as I know.
But that's just me.
If it makes you feel better, this issue is not specific to Universal and Hurth. Our new boat has a Yanmar engine and the manual is completely silent on where the transmission should be left when the boat is under sail. Not a word. No label on the transmission either, which also is a Yanmar proprietary brand. They issued a technical bulletin several years ago that indicated the transmission should be left in neutral because of wear on the transmission "cones" if left in reverse (unless you have a folding or feathering prop). This apparently took everyone by surprise, including Yanmar technicians and distributors, who had been telling their customers to leave the transmission in reverse while sailing.
If you have a fixed prop, you'll have a lot less less drag while sailing if you leave the transmission in neutral (according to Flexofold, a fixed prop in gear produces 50 percent of the drag of the entire rest of the hull) and no risk of accidentally starting the engine in gear. That decides the issue for me. I agree that the cutlass bearing wear should be a non-issue.
I also have a Yanmar (Catalina 400, MKII). This thread got me curious, and I was able to contact Yanmar who sent a website - http://www.shaftlok.com/YANMAR_MSA08-003_Neutral+Sailing.pdf - advising that on these engines, the recommendation is that they be sailed in neutral, as Claygar says. So it was useful to me to have this thread. One reason I keep on this site is that the volume of topics, and the number of replies, allows opportunities to gain new insights. Good work, All.
Thanks,
Scotty
I have actually started my engine with the engine in reverse more than once and although it was a little sluggish starting, it did start with no "obvious" problems. Anyone know of the problems with this. Of course no one would want to do this on purpose but what dammage will it cause?
Mike
Mike, I'm sure many of us have done that, too, me included. No damage as long as you don't do it all the time! :D
Guys : Don't think there is any real damage to the engine as long as the throttle is cracked an inch (like it should be), but you're going to be moving when you hadn't planned to!!