I find myself with a toasted charger and a battery bank that needs replacing. Reading the upgrade thread has me dreaming of the increased capacity of the Trojan T105's but I'd love to see photos, if anyone has them, of the 4 batteries mounted in the battery compartment that resembles mine... I'm guessing any Mk1 would have the same battery box as my 1.5, but who knows?
I'd also love to see photos of an alternately mounted starting battery if anyone has anything.
Mike : Look in thy Mainsheet tech notes. I know that there is at least one picture and article by Hank Recla on mounting 4 Trojan's in a Mk1 battery compartment.
A thought
Check out Jon W's Wiki post.
http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D1987_MK_1_Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade
Hi Mike,
I went up to the boat in early January to remove my batteries so I could turn them in for the core value for the new ones I bought last month. Here are some pictures showing the battery arrangement in my boat and the battery box with the batteries removed. The PO put a plywood sheet in the bottom of the battery well to hold the T105s. I took most of what you can see in the picture home to clean up and paint before I reinstall my new batteries in April before launch. Now that I have easy access, I also have some cleanup to do on the fuse block arrangement.
Not much more you can do with four in that space. This is a friend's C34.
Thanks all!
One more...
For a MK 1, as Ben said I have a write up in the Tech WIKI for a complete electrical upgrade including 4 T105's in the battery compartment, and adding a reserve battery under the forward corner of the sette instead of under the aft cabin mattress. Lots of photos.
More from my boat. I have web straps over the tops (not shown) and did not do dividers between, instead used oak wedges on one side.
One more thing: depending on the direction you run your cables: if they exit out of the bottom of the box I would strongly recommend that you caulk the penetration hole(s) in the chance of a catastrophic battery leak, battery acid dosen't run into your bilge. This is one of my exceptions to the "no silicone on board" rule. It actually works well for this as it is not impacted by battery acid.
Thanks a million, folks!
Using T105's does not allow an installation inside a sealed battery box. Not a good idea.
Mark,
Certainly true that sealed boxes won't fit but what are the options? The "risk" seems very low compared to the return of a high capacity, high quality, relatively inexpensive house battery bank.
Quote from: mark_53 on March 22, 2017, 06:27:40 AM
Using T105's does not allow an installation inside a sealed battery box. Not a good idea.
Sealing the
bottom opening to avoid acid running out
does not mean sealing the entire box. No reason to not have vents along the faces of the box as many have done.
There's so much about my boat that doesn't meet current ABYC standards that I'm sure what I do will be an improvement. That said, I want to use my dollars wisely and improve the value of my boat, not make expensive mistakes.
I just forked over the $185 to join ABYC for a year so I could study the standards. I'll report back if anyone is interested. E-10 and E-11 seem the relevant ones to this topic.
As far as I know there is no ABYC requirement for a "sealed box". Just strapping down batteries. The OEM battery install was not "sealed" either with the settee seat acting as a lid and wires penetrating the box. Venting the compartment Into the salon is also fine and RECOMMENDED. I sealed/caulked around the wires penetrating into the bilge for added safety incase of a flooded battery leaking. Once that is done there is plenty of room in existing compartment to contain any acid spill.
Noah:
My reading of other's interpretations of the standard is that you are 100% correct, with the possible exception of potentially needing to make the inside of the box itself acid tolerant. That said, I have no idea what that would take or whether it's even required. I figure reading the standard and forming my own (mis?)interpretation is the next step. All that said, I'm heading the same direction you went.
Mike
Quote from: rmbrown on March 22, 2017, 08:12:45 AM
.....................
..................... I figure reading the standard and forming my own (mis?)interpretation is the next step.
Mike,
May I suggest another approach?
Creating your own misinterpretations of the complicated ABYC standards may not be the best use of your time and money. I spent 40 years in the building construction industry which is rife with codes & standards, each of which can and were interpreted by various jurisdictions with differing outcomes. And this was from and by experts on those standards!!! You might well be trying to reinvent the wheel.
Instead, study what's been written here about electrical systems and also study Maine Sail's excellent website, linked many times in each of his posts and in the sticky "Support Maine Sail" topic.
He is on the ABYC board of standards. He does boat electrical systems for a living, knows his stuff and writes well.
You may recognize that I have spent "some" of my time discussing electrical systems. :shock: I have never felt the need or want to "invest" in the ABYC standards, because those who came before me explained them all much better than I, a trained electrical engineer, could.
In addition to Maine Sail's excellent presentations, just about every single quality boat electrical book I've ever read does so, too.
In many, if not all cases, codes and standards are minimum requirements. Often "best practices"
are better than standards, a point Maine Sail makes very often.
Misinterpretations can only lead to confusion. And, in some cases, hazards.
Good luck.
Excellent points as usual Stu. I think the concern (if there is a concern) is the view that there may be a lack of a tray to capture spilled or boiled over electrolyte. In my purchase survey from several years ago the surveyor noted: "The four batteries under the inboard aft seat of the starboard settee are not in a proper box with a proper cover and are not secured in place. The batteries must be contained in a liquid tight tray or box of adequate capacity to retain normal spillage or boil over of electrolytes with a non conductive vented cover and properly secured as per NFPA 302 section 7-3, 4, 5, & 6." At the time my batteries were not tied down. I corrected that. I think the recesses at the bottom of the battery box could serve as the liquid tight tray. These were not seen by the surveyor (or me until I pulled the batteries earlier this year). The need for a liquid tight tray is further enhanced by Noah's good idea to silicone the cable race at the bottom of the battery box. The seat cover over the batteries is a non conductive cover and the box is vented to the cabin. I see no issues with my setup. As several people have said, interpretation could go any way on this. I rest easy knowing that I have a safe and secure battery installation, compliant to the interpretation of whatever regulation applies or not.
Stu:
I appreciate your thoughtful, and well thought out, comments. This site, and the wealth of knowledge you guys provide, is worth a fortune! I'm in the medical device software business, very much driven by regulations and the resulting standards and their interpretations, so I hear what you are saying. Typically, as in this case, there's not enough info provided to be of much help. The relevant sections of E-10 are:
10.7.1 Battery mounting materials and surfaces shall withstand electrolyte attack.
10.7.2 Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and spillage of electrolyte.
Neither is enough to settle any debates here, or even answer any simple question!
I'll definitely study what's been written here. I'm impressed with both the solutions that you guys have come up with and the time that you've spent documenting them for the benefit of folks like me.
Re Maine Sail, I did a paid consult with him last week and will probably both do another and purchase my parts from him as I go. Fantastic resource and recommendation.
My preference would be to learn my boat over the season prior to making changes. Unfortunately, my charger is fried and my starting and house batteries area all fried, so I have to move quicker than that. I think I could install a new starting battery in the battery box, use only the alternator to charge it, and move the boat to the marina from the boatyard without any issue but I'll need to move on house batteries quickly and, without a charger, they aren't worth much.
Anyway, I'll absorb every word and no doubt ask more questions before I do anything at all!
Hey Dave.. I wonder if the cover over the compartment is an issue because it's not secured and could, in the event of a knockdown, fall off and expose the batteries? Far fetched, maybe, but maybe some positive latch of the hatch cover would suffice?
Also, I wonder what it would take in that battery box to make it acid tolerant?
Hi Mike,
I'm not too worried about the seat cover. In case of a knockdown, the batteries are secured so I don't have 272 lbs of batteries rattling around. The terminals are protected with terminal covers so the danger of shorting is minimized. Electrolyte would spill but that would be the case even with stand alone vented battery box. And the seat cover, latch or not would not contain spilled electrolyte. I'm not sure what it would take to coat the box to make it acid tolerant. I'm not too worried about it - but it's interesting to think these things through and take reasonable and prudent measures to keep the boat as safe as can be. Keep the filling the Black Box!
http://johnvigor.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-black-box-theory.html (http://johnvigor.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-black-box-theory.html)
Forever and ever, amen.
IMO the gelcoated battery compartment is about as battery acid resistent as required.
Guys : The two important things to have inside a battery compartment are :
!. Tie downs
2. Terminal covers/boots
My thoughts
Quote from: rmbrown on March 22, 2017, 12:23:56 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Unfortunately, my charger is fried and my starting and house batteries area all fried, so I have to move quicker than that. I think I could install a new starting battery in the battery box, use only the alternator to charge it, and move the boat to the marina from the boatyard without any issue but I'll need to move on house batteries quickly and, without a charger, they aren't worth much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>before I do anything at all!
Here's an option you may not yet have stumbled upon:
WAIT. :D :D :D
1. Leave your single battery in the battery box. Wire your AO to it, either through the switch or directly. Use only one position on the 1-2-B switch for that single battery.
2. Run your boat from the boatyard to your slip.
3. There is now NO HURRY to deal with house bank batteries, chargers or anything else. UNTIL you have some time to do some homework and research.
The advantage is that you should be in NOT hurry. Hurrying is always prone to bad results, like sailing on a schedule.
Do you want to go 6V golf carts or 12V?
What charger?
Get a simple small solar panel and cheap controller to keep your single battery charged. You can always use it later, not much $$.
Then spend some time thinking and researching.
Don't hurry.
Good luck.
Stu:
I hear you and, by and large, that's what I intend to do... install a new starting battery where it sits, make sure the alternator is charging it, and move the boat to the marina. That allows me to quit paying double (slip plus yard) plus it allows me to day sail.
That said, I'd like to move as quickly as I can, without making misinformed decisions, so that I can start weekending on the boat and using the instruments. (My assumption being that if I replace the starting battery with something that isn't dual purpose, then I can't use them without discharging the battery enough to damage the battery.)
12V would be easier (no rewiring) but 6V gives me more capacity so that's where I'm headed I think. I suppose it would be good to know what percentage of folks actually NEED that additional capacity but my assumption is that I will for weekend trips, or at least that I'll appreciate it. For this year, who cares, but my hope is that I'll get 5 or more years out of these batteries if I treat them right, and the capacity will be an issue by the end of their life.
As for charger, Maine Sail recommended a Sterling ProCharge Ultra. That's where I plan to head for the moment.
Quote from: rmbrown on March 23, 2017, 04:19:23 AM
1. (My assumption being that if I replace the starting battery with something that isn't dual purpose, then I can't use them without discharging the battery enough to damage the battery.)
2. 12V would be easier (no rewiring) but 6V gives me more capacity so that's where I'm headed I think.
3. I suppose it would be good to know what percentage of folks actually NEED that additional capacity but my assumption is that I will for weekend trips, or at least that I'll appreciate it. For this year, who cares, but my hope is that I'll get 5 or more years out of these batteries if I treat them right, and the capacity will be an issue by the end of their life.
4. As for charger, Maine Sail recommended a Sterling ProCharge Ultra. That's where I plan to head for the moment.
1. Not necessarily. If, for now, all you plan are short day sails, using a cheap starter (auto) battery for short term (a few hours) at low load (simple instruments, VHF on standby/listening, throw in a stereo which uses 2A at max volume) you will not really harm the battery. You'll be motoring at the beginning and end of those sails anyway. Forget dual purpose - they do neither well. Auto Zone batteries are really cheap, really.
2. Rewiring what (if you don't have anything)? If you go 6V you'll need the short jumper wires to make 12V anyway, right?
3. It doesn't matter what anyone else does. Really. Since you grasp the concept of the energy budget, consider this: turn the concept upside down. Make "use of the available" and "see what it gets you" in terms of longevity at anchor. For 6V, you have only two choices: 2 or 4 6Vs, for a nominal 225 or 450 ah. For 12V, using Group 31s, each battery will give you 130 ah, your choice of how many for your house bank (I have 3 for 390 ah). That's it. Then back those ahs into how much your energy budget says and you will see how many nights you can last without recharging (or running your engine). You may also have seen this: Record of Daily Energy Use of 100 ah per day: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6353.msg41471.html#msg41471 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6353.msg41471.html#msg41471) If you have a fridge that's a "normal" use pattern. KISS.
4. Thing is, they come in different sizes. Also included in the "Electrical Systems 101" topic. Your boat, your choice (for sizing, but 60A is a pretty good choice, smaller takes longer to charge). :D
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 23, 2017, 06:40:44 AM
Quote from: rmbrown on March 23, 2017, 04:19:23 AM
1. (My assumption being that if I replace the starting battery with something that isn't dual purpose, then I can't use them without discharging the battery enough to damage the battery.)
2. 12V would be easier (no rewiring) but 6V gives me more capacity so that's where I'm headed I think.
3. I suppose it would be good to know what percentage of folks actually NEED that additional capacity but my assumption is that I will for weekend trips, or at least that I'll appreciate it. For this year, who cares, but my hope is that I'll get 5 or more years out of these batteries if I treat them right, and the capacity will be an issue by the end of their life.
4. As for charger, Maine Sail recommended a Sterling ProCharge Ultra. That's where I plan to head for the moment.
1. Not necessarily. If, for now, all you plan are short day sails, using a cheap starter (auto) battery for short term (a few hours) at low load (simple instruments, VHF on standby/listening, throw in a stereo which uses 2A at max volume) you will not really harm the battery. You'll be motoring at the beginning and end of those sails anyway. Forget dual purpose - they do neither well. Auto Zone batteries are really cheap, really.
2. Rewiring what (if you don't have anything)? If you go 6V you'll need the short jumper wires to make 12V anyway, right?
3. It doesn't matter what anyone else does. Really. Since you grasp the concept of the energy budget, consider this: turn the concept upside down. Make "use of the available" and "see what it gets you" in terms of longevity at anchor. For 6V, you have only two choices: 2 or 4 6Vs, for a nominal 225 or 450 ah. For 12V, using Group 31s, each battery will give you 130 ah, your choice of how many for your house bank (I have 3 for 390 ah). That's it. Then back those ahs into how much your energy budget says and you will see how many nights you can last without recharging (or running your engine). You may also have seen this: Record of Daily Energy Use of 100 ah per day: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6353.msg41471.html#msg41471 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6353.msg41471.html#msg41471) If you have a fridge that's a "normal" use pattern. KISS.
4. Thing is, they come in different sizes. Also included in the "Electrical Systems 101" topic. Your boat, your choice (for sizing, but 60A is a pretty good choice, smaller takes longer to charge). :D
1. Good thought.
2. Maybe nothing. Part of this weekend's project is to understand what I've got in terms of keeping both banks charged... whether the battery selector selects what gets charged as well as which gets used.
3. Good thought.
4. Haven't given much thought to size of charger yet. I'll definitely research. Not sure that speed to recharge matters to me as I expect I'll leave the boat plugged in. I expect that most of the time the charger will work it's magic after I drive away from the boat. I know there is a debate as to whether it's better to unplug when I leave, which would mean that the charger would need to be quick or they'd never see 100%.
Quote from: rmbrown on March 23, 2017, 06:53:33 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Maybe nothing. Part of this weekend's project is to understand what I've got in terms of keeping both banks charged... whether the battery selector selects what gets charged as well as which gets used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
4. Haven't given much thought to size of charger yet. I'll definitely research. Not sure that speed to recharge matters to me as I expect I'll leave the boat plugged in. I expect that most of the time the charger will work it's magic after I drive away from the boat. I know there is a debate as to whether it's better to unplug when I leave, which would mean that the charger would need to be quick or they'd never see 100%.
2. These links from Elec 101 cover this issue. Once you understand the difference in the function of the switch between a charge and use switch, then you can make a decision. No "right way" to do it if you understand the differences, but we strongly recommend make the switch a use-only one, and here's why:
OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101)
Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html)
This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615)
This is a newer primer for boat system wiring design with a thorough digram: Building a Good Foundation (October 2016)
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/building-the-dc-electrical-foundation.181929/#post-1332240 (http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/building-the-dc-electrical-foundation.181929/#post-1332240)
The Short Version of the 1-2-B Switch Stuff: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.msg38552.html#msg38552 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.msg38552.html#msg38552) This is a link to the Electrical Systems 101 Topic, reply #2
What are ACRs, Combiners & Echo Chargers? (by Maine Sail)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=742417
(http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=742417)
4. Regardless of the size of your charger (within reason) speed doesn't much matter. Why? Because of battery acceptance: that last 10-15% takes literally forever, sometimes as long as 24 hours, to get back to 100% SOC. That's really where solar shines (pun intended :clap) because you can leave the boat unplugged and still charge your bank. When I moved up to Canada last summer, before we brought the boat up, hen I left her in California, I bought a $22 controller and hooked up my house bank to an old 11W panel I had from years ago. When we returned to the boat two months later, the bank was just fine. Battery Acceptance by Stu http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html)
We know it's a daunting subject, but may I again recommend that you take a deep breath, don't hurry, and spend some time reading most of the topics in the Elec 101 thread. It will save a lot of repetition. It really will help you avoid reinventing the wheel. :D
Quote from: rmbrown on March 22, 2017, 12:23:56 PM
10.7.1 Battery mounting materials and surfaces shall withstand electrolyte attack.
10.7.2 Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and spillage of electrolyte.
If you have batteries that can leak electrolyte, the box to which they could leak acid into needs to be
acid tolerant. It also needs to be able to
contain the acid in the battery without spilling to areas that are not acid tolerant with consideration given to vessel type & usage. This containment, for batteries that have liquid electrolyte, should be capable of containment at angles of typical heeling on a sailboat...
Many boat builders molded fiberglass battery boxes, Ericson, Pearson etc., and those meet the requirement, as does a $6.00 plastic battery box. However if you put a SS screw through the bottom of the battery box or floor of the battery compartment, it can no longer withstand "electrolyte attack" unless the fastener is so isolated so that erosion of it would not allow the electrolyte to leak out....
If you need a custom box they are easy to build. You then drop it at a Rhino Liner and have them hit it for $30.00 with pickup truck bed liner...
Dry batteries, eg: AGM's, that
can't leak electrolyte would not require accommodations for acid spillage or leakage,
because they can't physically leak, but flooded batteries would.
You don't want to know what happens when battery acid gets to keel bolts, it's not pretty, and it gets very expensive. I have seen far to many batteries leak or crack and when there is no containment it gets nasty. Even with containment it can be a nasty mess of corrosion...
Remember the ABYC standards are not a code or law but surveyors survey to the standards and insurers insure to the surveys. A flooded battery without any provisions for acid containment is bound to get flagged by all but the worst surveyor.
E10- Current Version
10.7
INSTALLATION
NOTE: When installing flooded batteries on a sailing vessel, consideration should be given so that the orientation of the battery minimizes the uncovering of battery plates while heeling.
10.7.1 Battery mounting materials and surfaces shall withstand electrolyte attack.
10.7.2 Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and spillage of electrolyte.
NOTE: Consideration should be given to:
1. the type of battery installed (e.g. liquid electrolyte or immobilized electrolyte).
2. the boat in which the battery is installed (e.g. angles of heel for sailboats, and accelerations for powerboats).
10.7.3 Fasteners for the attachment of battery boxes or trays shall be isolated from areas intended to collect spilled electrolyte.
Perhaps the easiest method to determine whether acid containment is necessary is to simply read the MSDS for your battery or contact the manufacturer. I know of no deep cycle flooded batteries that meet the DOT or CFR 49 classification requirements for "
non-spillable". Most all AGM and GEL batteries however meet the "non-spillable" requirements under DOT and CFR 49 as "non-spillable".
I currently have two 4Ds, one of which is dead. I am thinking of replacing the dead 4D with two T105 6V batteries, with the plan to replace the other 4D with two T105s when the other passes away. After searching for a good deep cycle 4D, it does not seem one is available. Also, the two T105s, being true deep cycle, should improve battery life. The additional amp hours will be a bonus as well and should give longer run time. I plan on sticking with flooded to avoid replacing both 4Ds at this time.
Has anyone staggered the transition from 4Ds to T105s? Any problems or ideas regarding this plan? Will this be a problem for the Truecharge 2 20A charger? Other considerations?
I have read what I can on the subject of batteries but don't know enough to be comfortable changing the existing setup. Your helpful comments are appreciated.