So I'm at a point where to complete our solar panel install, I just need to wire the controllers (MPPTs) to the house batteries. The only thing is that my ratcheting crimper will only go as large as 10 AWG wire. The marina has a large crimping tool, but it only goes as small as 4 AWG. I tried the 8 AWG with my crimping tool but destroyed the lug as a result (not surprising).
I've looked at all the local big stores like HomeDepot, Rona, and Canadian Tire, with no luck. I' starting to think I'll ask at the garage on Thursday when I take our van in for its seasonal oil change!n I'm getting desperate.
Does anyone know of a place that would sell/loan a crimper for 6 & 8 AWG wires?
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on October 17, 2017, 10:39:50 PM
So I'm at a point where to complete our solar panel install, I just need to wire the controllers (MPPTs) to the house batteries. The only thing is that my ratcheting crimper will only go as large as 10 AWG wire. The marina has a large crimping tool, but it only goes as small as 4 AWG. I tried the 8 AWG with my crimping tool but destroyed the lug as a result (not surprising).
I've looked at all the local big stores like HomeDepot, Rona, and Canadian Tire, with no luck. I' starting to think I'll ask at the garage on Thursday when I take our van in for its seasonal oil change!n I'm getting desperate.
Does anyone know of a place that would sell/loan a crimper for 6 & 8 AWG wires?
Fred, what kind/make/model crimper do you have? I use a couple different crimpers for 8 awg, depending......... One is a die crimper, and I have a die that fits 8 awg. But for 8 awg I use only non-insulated butts and then HST over them myself.
I'd be pleased to either lend you a set up, or point you in a direction if you want another man toy, depending on how much you'll use it again in the future.
My heavy, long handle FTZ cable crimper does 6 awg (but not 8 awg) but is kinda a monster to ship (but could be done.) I don't THINK you want to do 6 awg crimps with a palm-type crimper.
I can sell you a short handle cable crimper that will do 8, 6, and larger, but probably not cost effective for a one shot need.
Ken
Frederick, I'm pretty sure those Chinese crimpers you can buy at HF, eBay or Amazon will do 8AWG and above. Worked fine for me but only used it once. The way they mark the die is a little funky though.
They make lugs that have a screw type compression. They work great in some times better than crimping. They can also be reused. Charlie
When I redid all the heavy gauge wiring on my boat I used the HF crimper and it worked great. Here is a link:
https://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
Thanks for the offer Ken. I'm sure shipping to Canada may be a bit pricey, and not sure about what would happen at the border these days. Below are a couple of pictures of my ratcheting crimper. If I could get dies for the next couple of sizes up that would be all I need. I bought it at Canadian Tire (MasterCraft brand), and they don't know of any additional dies that could go with it. I suspect its made for them by someone else, but not sure who. :donno:
Ben: I have concerns about the HF tool, based on the negative reviews and MaineSail's testing of it: (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=3 (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=3)) Apparently the sizes are way off, and it comes with a 7 AWG? Never heard of that one before, but it doesn't matter, if the size they say a die is, is not. You would need to buy a whole bunch of lugs to test out on and figure out what was what. I'm too lazy for that, and maybe a bit cheap. :wink:
Ken: Is the large crimper that you have like MaineSail's large one (FTZ 94284)? (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=1 (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables&page=1)) The reason I ask is that the marina had one like that, but no one on that day knew what sizes and it could do, and they all looked too big (to my eye). It also had numbers on it and not gauge size, so I also did not know how to translate what was what in sizes. Maybe I need to go back to them and try the 6 AWG with them?
Hi Fred, I was looking for a crimp tool for 8 to 1 gauges a while back. I ended up buying a Greenlee made in Germany. I've used it a few times and it works great. FYI - it does require to double crimp above 4 AWG. I don't see that as a problem, just another step. A photo of the PN and the tool are attached.
Fred,
A couple of important things, and I hope everyone on the forum who does electrical work is reading your post so they "get this."
From your description, the marina cable crimper is possibly a China knock off. They typically have millimeter sizing stamped on the dies, but they don't relate to the lug size. Or some have awg size stamped on. The mm sizing, I found, is the circular area of the copper conductor itself (in square millimeters.) That's as useful as well, use your imagination. The quality of those are so poor that I personally would not use them on any crimp that I cared a damn about.
The crimper in the picture should NOT be used with adhesive shrink terminals. Period. Or with starter type lugs. It has double-crimp dies, which is meant for nylon, non-heat shrink, "Automotive" stak-on terminals. One side of the die crimps the wire terminal, the other side cramps the nylon strain relief. If you use it on adhesive shrink terminals, first the die is not sized correctly for the diameter of AHS terminals, and second it typically damages (pinches through) the insulation/heat shrink.
It doesn't look like a half decent unit, and may very well likely come from the same source as the harbor freight terminal crimper, which is a fairly good crimper for what it's made to do. You can get dies for your frame to do adhesive shrink terminals.
You won't want to try to do #6 lugs with something that light. You might get by doing #8 starter lgs, but even that's a little dicey but doable. I use two different dies that also fit yours and do #8 starter lugs, but I use them on a heavier frame with higher mechanical advantages. More than a few starter lugs at a time on that and either your hands and wrists will be talking to you or the frame will get ruined.
I have dies for mine that also do number eight adhesive shrink terminals, although almost never do AHS terminals or butt splices on #8, as I said below I use non-insulated, and then heat shrink myself.
I have a half dozen hand type crimpers (yes even including the HF) that I can do various #8: non-insulated dimple crimp as well as hex crimps, and adhesive shrink crimps. For #6 I use the FTZ or Greenlee like Jon has (admittedly not as good as the FTZ).
On both your #6 and #8, will you be doing lugs, or butt crimps? How many? Would it be worthwhile to just make up and send you the cables? Do you have a US drop address?
I'm unsure exactly what you're doing, but #6 seems a little heavy for solar, no? I need education there. .
Yes, my cable crimper is the FTC that RC uses. Those rotating dies are marked with letters - and there's a chart that identifies what letter combination (e.g., A-B) left and right dies to use for each lug size and type (starter lug versus power lug.)
Fred. Jon
The HF hydraulic crimper dies are sized per the copper cross section, not the lug awg size.
I tried to correlate that ( below) and went round with HF buyers in Cali for 4 months. They said they're correcting that with the vendor. Yeah right. Once the told me I needed to go to a local auto stereo shop and learn about terminal crimping and sizes. LOL. They sent me a check and decided to say that to shut me up. That was 2 yrs ago. Same trash is still put out on their shelves.
The limited attempts I did to correlate the two, you jump two die numbers to match your lug size. i.e., if I recall correctly (CRS) a #8 starter lug needs a #6 HF die set. I actually gave up trying to correlate the two, mainly because tho I might get it lookin' good, there's no control as to whether the crimp is actually to spec or under crimped or over crimped. Some don't give a darn about that. One would need to do crimps with both tools and then compare the finished hex crimps with a micrometer.
K
The Greenlee crimp tool I purchased above is not a Harbor Freight tool.
Quote from: Jon W on October 18, 2017, 09:54:25 PM
The Greenlee crimp tool I purchased above is not a Harbor Freight tool.
Jon:
Understood- didn't mean to imply "HF" about the Greenlee. I was just passing Fred info re: his concern about the HF hydraulic.
Fred- I mis-typed below.
It (yours)
doesn't look
S like a half decent unit, and may very well likely come from the same source as the harbor freight
hand terminal crimper, which is a fairly good crimper for what it's made to do. You can get dies for your frame to do adhesive shrink terminals.
I use the Greenlee but not all that often, because for #6 I prefer the rounded-off square crimp of my monster heavy FTZ. And for #8, my heavy hand type makes a nicer hex crimp. I'll actually try a #6 with my hand type and report back.
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 18, 2017, 11:59:42 PM
I use the Greenlee but not all that often, because for #6 I prefer the rounded-off square crimp of my monster heavy FTZ. And for #8, my heavy hand type makes a nicer hex crimp. I'll actually try a #6 with my hand type and report back.
ken
Fred
I tried #6 lugs with my hex dies and hand crimper. No way can you do a FTZ power lug.
I can crimp a starter lug, but NOT QUITE to the extent of using my FTZ large crimper.
The approach I used (for better or worse) was to measure the cross-section area of the FTZ's square crimp, and figured the world is good if I could attain the same cross section with my hex crimp. Using the die that I could fairly reasonably crimp by hand, I couldn't quite attain the same cross section (see below).
#1 is the nice FTZ rounded-off square crimp, and #2 is the nice hex crimp.
I could get it down to the same cross section using a smaller hex die, but would need to put the crimper in a vice to squeeze it closed (which I did not do for want of not screwing up the plastic covering on the handles or the crimper itself.)
So, you can do #8 with a hand crimper, but for #6 you need at least a short length handle like the Greenlee K05 or a different FTZ model. (or ruin a hand crimper in a vice.) If I know you budget I might be able to find a decent deal for you on a new man-toy.
Ken
Ken, thanks so much for taking the time to check this out. Sorry I haven't got back sooner, it's been busy for me. The lugs are like the type in your photos. I originally tried the smaller #8 with a plastic collar in my hand crimper (but it only goes as large as #10) and I destroyed the lug and the wire was still loose, so no go.
I'm back up at the boat this weekend to do the winterizing, so I'll check back with the marine to see if their big crimper could do the #6, now that I know to look for a legend to explain the numbers. It still leaves me with figuring out how to do the #8s. I'm wondering if an auto shop would be something?
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on October 21, 2017, 08:28:30 AM
I'm wondering if an auto shop would be something?
Try West Marine. I think they let you use their crimper.
Quote from: mark_53 on October 21, 2017, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on October 21, 2017, 08:28:30 AM
I'm wondering if an auto shop would be something?
Try West Marine. I think they let you use their crimper.
Yes they do. 👍
IIRC, WM would let you use their crimper without having to buy their stuff.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 21, 2017, 11:28:19 AM
IIRC, WM would let you use their crimper without having to buy their stuff.
Probably so -- I know that I took my existing battery negative jumpers to NAPA and the guy recrimped them for nada. But then again, I bought other stuff at the time.
I guess we've all
bought enough expensive stuff from WM over the years but somehow I wouldn't feel comfy doing a bunch of crimps w/ my supplies. One or two I suppose. JTSO.
k
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on October 21, 2017, 08:28:30 AM
Ken, thanks so much for taking the time to check this out. Sorry I haven't got back sooner, it's been busy for me. The lugs are like the type in your photos. I originally tried the smaller #8 with a plastic collar in my hand crimper (but it only goes as large as #10) and I destroyed the lug and the wire was still loose, so no go.
I'm back up at the boat this weekend to do the winterizing, so I'll check back with the marine to see if their big crimper could do the #6, now that I know to look for a legend to explain the numbers. It still leaves me with figuring out how to do the #8s. I'm wondering if an auto shop would be something?
Fred, timing perfect, I tested the crimps only at midnight last night!
If you are going to do ANY more #16 - #10 AHS terminals/butts (and what boater isn't?), I would AT LEAST get a new die for your China crimper frame. See pic #2 below. That's a Hobby Fright crimper frame (like 10? bananas on sale) with a #22-#8 AHS terminal die. Not what I use, but just an example that one can get decent DIY (tho not professional) AHS crimps on the cheap side.
OR if you are a serious DIY get the AHS terminal crimper that RC sells. You can see the cavities (#3 below) make a MUCH nicer, confined, and secure crimp (#4 left) vs the typical AHS crimp (#4 right.) Rod did a SUPER job designing that for Sargent/Oetiker to make for him -- I wish he'd also do a standard die set with the same configuration (
HINT HINT).
Pricey but worth it if you want a man toy. Otherwise use your frame. (for #8 I will not use AHS terminals, only #8 lugs.) Yours didn't do a #8 insulated terminal because it's not made for that, only Sta-kon type terminals
Reasonably priced pptions on the #8 AND #6, are get a Greenlee K05 (not my go-to tool for the best looking crimp, but it does work.) Or the smaller FTZ.
OR for #8, get a better frame (more leverage) and a hex die for #8 lugs. That's what I use. Or a dimple type die which your China frame might have enough leverage for.
(http://www.proskit.com/bmz_cache/d/dc860b42c43a1ab7ec7c3e9a0698c314.image.150x150.jpg)
(also not my 1st choice, but it works.) Again, if I know what you can spend I can recommend better-er.
ken
Alas, Westmarine left Canada a year ago. We have a lot of pissed boaters up here, cause its gotten harder to find stuff. Mostly we go online and buy from the Binnacle. There some smaller mom &pop shops in every city, but they're typically too small to have a complete invetory and often have to order in.
Fred : On the larger wire I used a Klein crimper and then soldered (Belt & Suspenders).
A thought
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 21, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
OR if you are a serious DIY get the AHS terminal crimper that RC sells. You can see the cavities (#3 below) make a MUCH nicer, confined, and secure crimp (#4 left) vs the typical AHS crimp (#4 right.) Rod did a SUPER job designing that for Sargent/Oetiker to make for him -- I wish he'd also do a standard die set with the same configuration (HINT HINT).
ken
Ken,
Been working on that front for a long while. My Taiwanese manufacturer, the only one I really can trust in China/Taiwan and I have visited about 18 of them, most of whom are flat out liars, wants an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 6000 pieces for a custom die set (requires a casting mold and then custom machining as the die can't be done via casting alone as many Chinese dies are.).. At my volumes this is just not going to happen or the price of each die set will be more than the PRO-HST and then no one will buy it.. I also have about $3000.00 already invested in prototypes, some with US companies and some with Taiwan, and every one has failed to meet the design spec for the crimp nests.
My American manufacturer, for a custom die, also puts the pricing comparable to the cost of the PRO-HST but they will not make a die to fit the Taiwanese frame. I have also talked to about a dozen other us manufacturers/machine shops/short run production facilities and my cost is in excess of $120.00 - $135.00
per die set. I can get this down to about $90.00 US but the MOQ goes to about 750-1000 pieces. All of this means the customer is now into a very expensive, but also very good, American made modular crimp frame and dies or a Taiwanese frame, with
unique die shape but still, in the end, exceeding the cost of the PRO-HST. Bottom line is that good quality crimp tools are simply not "cheap" to produce.
I would love to sell all American made crimp tools, I have tried, but boat-owners simply will not pay for that quality. Pro's will, because they understand what a good crimp means and is, but far too many DIY's fail to see or understand these subtleties.
There is a reason I call my pro line "PRO" and that is because about 95% of my orders for those tools are going to
professionals. Heck I sell about 25:1 of the Taiwanese made HS tool over the much better quality US made PRO-HST tool. I used to offer the US made version of the Taiwanese HS tool, the same tool AMP sells, but I sold only two of them in the same period I went through approx 150 of the Taiwanese made
knock-off tool,. Even when I was literally
giving away the US made tool, at a 4% margin, it still did not sell.. The US made tool
is better but folks simply would not pay the premium... My belief is that the US DIY buyer is being fooled by "look-a-like" tools and these look-a-like tools make it very hard to invest in inventory that won't move fast enough, even at the very low margins I am at, to justify the inventory expenses. I really HATE buying and importing from Taiwan but the US buyer drives the market so I choose my manufacturers and tools very carefully and put them though testing before ever offering them to my customers..
I can sell a very, very excellent US made tool for 8-2GA but most owners would never pay for it's quality as it is well over $200.00. I have a number of tools that will do 8GA to 6GA and up but none of them are "inexpensive" and "quality" at the same time. The tools I use personally on these sizes are all US Made premium quality tools.
I will be heading down to my US manufacturer in a few weeks to discuss some new products (for my PRO line) to go over some new CAD drawings with them. Crossing my fingers.
Rod
I haven't ordered one yet, but I saw what I recall was probably an open-barrel die that, if the teat was carefully filed down, looks exactly like your PRO's cavities. I don't have -dies, as I use an old Radio Shack really dedicated crimper that makes sweet crimps for those. It on my list to order one of those dies and measure the cavities. Wonder if......
BTW, I just found an AMP Bantam and a Ilisco for 110 each!!! We'll see how used they are when they show up. They both look sweet in the use category.
ken
You'll love that Bantam Rota-Crimp. it is my most used crimp tool for lugs. When you get it take it apart, clean it, lube it and then adjust it per AMP instructions. it really is a virtually indestructible tool.
Quote from: mainesail on October 24, 2017, 08:35:59 AM
You'll love that Bantam Rota-Crimp. it is my most used crimp tool for lugs. When you get it take it apart, clean it, lube it and then adjust it per AMP instructions. it really is a virtually indestructible tool.
Ya, I got it based on your prior discussion about it, BTW. Thank you.
FWIW, I have been able to virtually indestruct a lot of tools over the years. :rolling Bad karma?
Could you email those instructions? I'd be forever full of great.
Part of my thought process was with it's size, instead of selling the FTZ, to (possibly like our cutlass pushers) use it as a loaner/rental with cable and supplies purchases, since getting crimps done seems to be such an impossible find. If it's as bullet-proof as you say that might swing the pendulum.
k
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 24, 2017, 09:16:11 AM
Quote from: mainesail on October 24, 2017, 08:35:59 AM
You'll love that Bantam Rota-Crimp. it is my most used crimp tool for lugs. When you get it take it apart, clean it, lube it and then adjust it per AMP instructions. it really is a virtually indestructible tool.
Ya, I got it based on your prior discussion about it, BTW. Thank you.
FWIW, I have been able to virtually indestruct a lot of tools over the years. :rolling Bad karma?
Could you email those instructions? I'd be forever full of great.
Part of my thought process was with it's size, instead of selling the FTZ, to (possibly like our cutlass pushers) use it as a loaner/rental with cable and supplies purchases, since getting crimps done seems to be such an impossible find. If it's as bullet-proof as you say that might swing the pendulum.
k
But the Bantam won't do anything larger than a 1/0 so the FTZ is a must keep unless you also get the AMP Rota Crimp... I do a hell of a lot of 2/0 and larger thus the larger AMP is a must. I do use the FTZ from time to time, like when it is wet or raining or I need to go do work on one of the islands and it's a rough wet ride in the work boat...
My Rota Crimp actually survived over a year submerged in 35' of water. I thought it was gone for good. My friend is a diver and he found it one day with a HUGE magnet.... I cleaned it, serviced it and sent it out for re calibration and it needed nothing. It hardly had any rust when it came up as it was in over 3' of soft silt..
Rod
I didn't mean to imply that I'd EVER give up the FTZ. Most, but not all, the folks who buy materials from me are in the 4-6-8 range so it makes sense to use Bantam as a loan/ rent tool. Besides, once you own a man tool you never get rid of it cuz keeping it is always no-cost. d:-)
K