Recent posts
#1
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 01:54:51 PMMark
Just for context 'fer others I think you are referring to
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11903.msg97457.html#msg97457
not
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11903.msg97563.html#msg97563
(which links pertain to deterioration aft, not a fwd smile (which I did not have,) and my prior experience rebedding the keel joint material.)
-ken
Just for context 'fer others I think you are referring to
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11903.msg97457.html#msg97457
not
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11903.msg97563.html#msg97563
(which links pertain to deterioration aft, not a fwd smile (which I did not have,) and my prior experience rebedding the keel joint material.)
-ken
Quote from: girmann on Today at 12:25:37 PMQuote from: KWKloeber on Yesterday at 10:42:35 PMPrevious info about my "no aft smile" and the loose aft nut (in no particular order):
I think that the only way you will really know the answer to this question is if you have a mechanical engineering friend. Knowing that type, turn it into some kind of bet and offer them a case of their favorite beverage so they do a "Finite element analysis" of the keel/hull joint blocked in the front or blocked fore and aft.
Logic dictates that the bolt isn't stretching, but the piece of keel that sticks out forward of the forward most keel bolt can bend. I'm not saying it does bend, I'm saying it "could". FEA (finite element analysis) would tell you exactly how much force you would need to create a "smile"
Mark
Mola Mola
#2
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by girmann - Today at 12:25:37 PMQuote from: KWKloeber on Yesterday at 10:42:35 PMPrevious info about my "no aft smile" and the loose aft nut (in no particular order):
I think that the only way you will really know the answer to this question is if you have a mechanical engineering friend. Knowing that type, turn it into some kind of bet and offer them a case of their favorite beverage so they do a "Finite element analysis" of the keel/hull joint blocked in the front or blocked fore and aft.
Logic dictates that the bolt isn't stretching, but the piece of keel that sticks out forward of the forward most keel bolt can bend. I'm not saying it does bend, I'm saying it "could". FEA (finite element analysis) would tell you exactly how much force you would need to create a "smile"
Mark
Mola Mola
#3
Main Message Board / Mobile Hotlinks to C34 Home & ...
Last post by KWKloeber - Yesterday at 11:36:53 PMThe mobile version has no links to jump elsewhere but you can click these: (opens a new tab in your mobile browser)
C34 HOME
https://c34.org/
TECH NOTES
https://c34.org/tech-noteswp/
TECH WIKI
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php
C34 HOME
https://c34.org/
TECH NOTES
https://c34.org/tech-noteswp/
TECH WIKI
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php
#4
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by KWKloeber - Yesterday at 10:42:35 PM@High Anxiety
Nothing is going to change before then and the keel will not fall off if you put off finding that out.
Like engines, plumbing, electrical, and other systems: one should not play Whack-a-Mole and willy-nilly replace/fix before one troubleshoots, Troubleshoots, TROUBLESHOOTs.
(Then play "more-informed" Whack-a-Mole.)
If I did it with no previous experience in dismembering the appendage, (IMO only) any other idiot like me **should** also be able to.
It's nasty, laborious (but not "difficult") work.
Reattaching it takes brain power (unfortunately I learned that the hard way.)
That said I'm unsure whether I would trust the yard with anything. Someone who blocks jack stands with 2x4s has (IMO only) questionable knowledge/conscientiousness and at worst doesn't care about their customers' yachts. Gimmeabreak -- don't they have lumber yards in ME?
Keel nuts that are 40 ft-lbs shy do not cause the Catalina smile.
Previous info about my "no aft smile" and the loose aft nut (in no particular order):
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/search?d=0&ev=0&p=recentpostdate%2Fsticky%2C%2C%2522keel%2522+AND+carbide%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0&ct=1&startdate=&enddate=
https://www.sailnet.com/posts/2051801875/
https://www.sailnet.com/posts/319785/
https://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=%22kwkloeber%22%20%22keel%22%20joint%20OR%20bedding%20OR%20carbide
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=97345
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=82156
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=81134
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=74413
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=71726
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67529
My saga about reattaching the keel:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67822
QuoteThe aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned itI've previously posted about my same experience re: the fingertight aft nut and keel bedding so many times that my head hurts every time I repost about it.
QuoteThe washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal;Are you thinking that CTY bolted-up the keel nuts/washers into wet gelcoat? Doesn't seem logical to me. What does, is the known issue on C-30s of torquing the nuts so many times that the washers compress the glass and bury themselves in the gelcoat.
QuoteWhether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.IIWMB my hem/haw would not be whether to drop the keel -- rather, my first step would be to decide WHEN to determine if I EVEN NEED TO drop the keel. That is, answer that question right now — OR just go sailing now and answer it in fall '24 / spring '25.
hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel.
Nothing is going to change before then and the keel will not fall off if you put off finding that out.
Like engines, plumbing, electrical, and other systems: one should not play Whack-a-Mole and willy-nilly replace/fix before one troubleshoots, Troubleshoots, TROUBLESHOOTs.
(Then play "more-informed" Whack-a-Mole.)
Quotepossible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything rightRemoving the keel is lightyears distant from being rocket science.
Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat.
If I did it with no previous experience in dismembering the appendage, (IMO only) any other idiot like me **should** also be able to.
It's nasty, laborious (but not "difficult") work.
Reattaching it takes brain power (unfortunately I learned that the hard way.)
That said I'm unsure whether I would trust the yard with anything. Someone who blocks jack stands with 2x4s has (IMO only) questionable knowledge/conscientiousness and at worst doesn't care about their customers' yachts. Gimmeabreak -- don't they have lumber yards in ME?
Quotecheck torque often.See above for (IMO) the danger of too-often and too-tighting of the keel nuts.
Keel nuts that are 40 ft-lbs shy do not cause the Catalina smile.
Previous info about my "no aft smile" and the loose aft nut (in no particular order):
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/search?d=0&ev=0&p=recentpostdate%2Fsticky%2C%2C%2522keel%2522+AND+carbide%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0&ct=1&startdate=&enddate=
https://www.sailnet.com/posts/2051801875/
https://www.sailnet.com/posts/319785/
https://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=%22kwkloeber%22%20%22keel%22%20joint%20OR%20bedding%20OR%20carbide
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=97345
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=82156
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=81134
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=74413
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=71726
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67529
My saga about reattaching the keel:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?msg=67822
#5
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by KWKloeber - Yesterday at 08:15:15 PMQuotewater coming FROM inside.
That's what attacks and eats up the "mung" keel bedding!
Been there, done that.
Got the Tee shirt (and N-95 respirator.)
#6
Main Message Board / Re: engine control cable
Last post by Jack Morrison - Yesterday at 04:52:17 PMThanks, Catalina Direct has provided the required installation instructions.
#7
Main Message Board / Re: engine control cable
Last post by Jack Morrison - Yesterday at 04:29:44 PMThanks! I'll check it out. Any advice regarding the process to install the cable myself?
#8
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by Noah - Yesterday at 04:25:00 PMNever thought about water coming FROM inside. I question that worry. I never consider gooping up bolts in the bilge years after keel install. Maybe? However, it is a "known" issue discussed here in the past, that you should remove any gelcoat from around the washers and nuts to prevent oxygen starvation which could cause corrosion.
#9
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by High Current - Yesterday at 03:27:12 PMWell, spring is here, and like all good boat projects, this one quickly got out of hand...
If you remember, I decided that sealing the "smile" from the outside and the bolt from the inside would be my course of action. But I decided to seal the other bolts while I was at it. The first thing I did was check torque and I discovered that only one nut required >20 ft-lb to tighten; even that one required less than 40
The aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned it while I was scooping the literal sludge out of that compartment. I strongly suspect, based on the undisturbed gelcoat over the washers, and based on the aforementioned sludge, that this is the first time in 34 years anyone gave these bolts any thought.
Next I removed all the bolts and cleaned under the washers to ensure I would get a good seal with Sikaflex. This was a BIG project involving copious amounts of degreaser, acetone, and elbow grease. The washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal; I would say at least 50% of the surface area under each washer was a void. There was no sealant around the nut / threads. These voids were filled with grease and led to mild corrosion of the undersides of the washers. The washer for the rearmost bolt, however, is almost completely gone, which explains why its nut (which was also heavily corroded) was so loose. Luckily the stud appears mostly intact. Around the studs I could see where bedding had squeezed into the holes from below. Although it didn't fill any of them completely, it should have protected most of the invisible part of the stud from corrosion - if it's intact. Whether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.
So I am once again hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel. On the one hand, I want to be comfortable that no further ingress is possible, and only a fresh bedding job above *and* below can make it a certainty. Likewise, if the bedding is compromised, dropping the keel is the only sure way to dry it out before I seal it from above. I observed some cracks much lower on the keel that had weeped some and had me worried, but I went back to a picture of haul-out and found they were already there. Still, it does make me wonder if water can seep up behind the fairing and get to the keel-hull joint even if it looks solid.
On the other hand, the keel is clearly attached quite firmly if it managed not to crack more than it did with the bolts so loose. That speaks to possible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything right; a botched repair could create problem with something that appears solid now. Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat. If the bedding hasn't failed I'm better off leaving it as-is. But with the bolts having all been so loose...what are the chances?
It is bizarre to me that Catalina apparently did not seal the bolts from the top; for all the concern about sea water getting in from below, it seems too easy for water (including salt from the stuffing box) to compromise the top portion of the bolts. Did they not realize crevice corrosion existed back in 1990?
I also think there's a compelling correlation between grease and corrosion. For all that the studs look OK below the (bilge) water line, there's some rust and pitting at/above the water line on some of them. If grease traps in water and keeps out oxygen, I could certainly see it facilitating crevice corrosion.
Moral of the story: keep your bilge clean, seal your bolts from the inside if you haven't already, and check torque often. Also, take lots of pictures: you never know when you might be wanting that "before" photo.
If you remember, I decided that sealing the "smile" from the outside and the bolt from the inside would be my course of action. But I decided to seal the other bolts while I was at it. The first thing I did was check torque and I discovered that only one nut required >20 ft-lb to tighten; even that one required less than 40
The aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned it while I was scooping the literal sludge out of that compartment. I strongly suspect, based on the undisturbed gelcoat over the washers, and based on the aforementioned sludge, that this is the first time in 34 years anyone gave these bolts any thought.Next I removed all the bolts and cleaned under the washers to ensure I would get a good seal with Sikaflex. This was a BIG project involving copious amounts of degreaser, acetone, and elbow grease. The washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal; I would say at least 50% of the surface area under each washer was a void. There was no sealant around the nut / threads. These voids were filled with grease and led to mild corrosion of the undersides of the washers. The washer for the rearmost bolt, however, is almost completely gone, which explains why its nut (which was also heavily corroded) was so loose. Luckily the stud appears mostly intact. Around the studs I could see where bedding had squeezed into the holes from below. Although it didn't fill any of them completely, it should have protected most of the invisible part of the stud from corrosion - if it's intact. Whether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.
So I am once again hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel. On the one hand, I want to be comfortable that no further ingress is possible, and only a fresh bedding job above *and* below can make it a certainty. Likewise, if the bedding is compromised, dropping the keel is the only sure way to dry it out before I seal it from above. I observed some cracks much lower on the keel that had weeped some and had me worried, but I went back to a picture of haul-out and found they were already there. Still, it does make me wonder if water can seep up behind the fairing and get to the keel-hull joint even if it looks solid.
On the other hand, the keel is clearly attached quite firmly if it managed not to crack more than it did with the bolts so loose. That speaks to possible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything right; a botched repair could create problem with something that appears solid now. Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat. If the bedding hasn't failed I'm better off leaving it as-is. But with the bolts having all been so loose...what are the chances?
It is bizarre to me that Catalina apparently did not seal the bolts from the top; for all the concern about sea water getting in from below, it seems too easy for water (including salt from the stuffing box) to compromise the top portion of the bolts. Did they not realize crevice corrosion existed back in 1990?
I also think there's a compelling correlation between grease and corrosion. For all that the studs look OK below the (bilge) water line, there's some rust and pitting at/above the water line on some of them. If grease traps in water and keeps out oxygen, I could certainly see it facilitating crevice corrosion.
Moral of the story: keep your bilge clean, seal your bolts from the inside if you haven't already, and check torque often. Also, take lots of pictures: you never know when you might be wanting that "before" photo.
#10
Main Message Board / Re: "Leaking" fiberglass hull
Last post by KWKloeber - Yesterday at 09:23:57 AMQuote from: LogoFreak on May 04, 2024, 09:25:52 PMLooks to me like water intrusion into hull, any blisters anywhere else? Was the hull sealed with an epoxy barrier coat?
The owner didn't say anything about blisters. The whole area was peeling paint (and possibly barrier?) which led to him investigating it and grinding it back.
Sounded like an inside-out rather than an outside-in situation.
But even if it was blistering due to intrusion, it wouldn't have been immersed in pink antifreeze to have that now dripping back out.
Odd!