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#1
Main Message Board / Re: ? Sudden overheating?
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 08:32:06 PMCraig
The more I remotely wrap my feeble brain think about this, the more it leans toward the gauge.
The Teleflex troubleshooting is checking only two extreme circumstances and nothing in between, like a "norm" midpoint.
It **could** be that the gauge pins high at anything above infinite resistance (when the S terminal is disconnected.)
Or it could read significantly high when the S resistance "says normal."
I couldn't see the forest -- (unless you have access to some resistors in the 50-ohm range to completely bypass the sender,) remove the sender and hook it up to the S and G terminals right at the gauge.
If she still pins high (and the sender has a reasonable resistance value for the ambient temp,) your gauge is likely kaput. ***
***I say "likely" because it's a boat and we know that there are never any absolutes!
The more I remotely wrap my feeble brain think about this, the more it leans toward the gauge.
The Teleflex troubleshooting is checking only two extreme circumstances and nothing in between, like a "norm" midpoint.
It **could** be that the gauge pins high at anything above infinite resistance (when the S terminal is disconnected.)
Or it could read significantly high when the S resistance "says normal."
I couldn't see the forest -- (unless you have access to some resistors in the 50-ohm range to completely bypass the sender,) remove the sender and hook it up to the S and G terminals right at the gauge.
If she still pins high (and the sender has a reasonable resistance value for the ambient temp,) your gauge is likely kaput. ***
***I say "likely" because it's a boat and we know that there are never any absolutes!
#2
Main Message Board / Re: ? Sudden overheating?
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 08:00:33 PMQuote from: Schulcb on January 14, 2024, 10:13:57 AMAm I correct that if the sender isn't grounding to the engine (teflon tape), I would get a high temp reading?The gauge **should** pin low if the sender is not grounded to the engine block (or read low if the ground has high resistance.)
When the gauge S terminal is grounded it **should** pin high.
Quote from: Schulcb on Today at 03:15:23 PMIf the ground to the instrument panel is the culprit, wouldn't all of the gauges be giving incorrect readings?The voltmeter could read OK because there is very low current to the panel gauges, so virtually no voltage loss.
The Tach "reads" the pulses from the alternator (the frequency of the AC output, not the amplitude.) A voltage above about 7v will drive the tach, so it may read ok.
(I have no clue how your fuel gauge is wired) but it was common for CTY to run a separate ground from the fuel gauge direct to the tank bonding screw, so that may read OK. You should be able to see if it has a separate ground.
Try checking the panel ground wire - for resistance to the engine block (is that where the ground is established for the panel?) You'd need to run a temporary wire back up to the panel to use as reference (or use the old temp sender wire if it is still there.) HOWEVER, I'm not sure how the panel ground will affect the gauge reading. but I would not **think** it would make the gauge pin high. That's something I have not run across before.
I find this good for troubleshooting
https://www.harborfreight.com/30-ft-retractable-test-leads-58024.html
I just wish that it was 16 gauge rather than 18.
I presume that your Temp alarm works? Grounding the engine temp switch S wire to the block **should** sound the alarm.
This keeps pointing to a short to ground in the S wire but there is resistance there. Maybe an intermittently bad gauge, but that is a huge coincidence that it goes intermittently bad between removing and reconnecting the S wire.
Does she have the Westerbeke black plugs on the harness (at the rear of the engine?)
This is real headscratcher since you already replaced the S wire.
#3
Main Message Board / Re: Shore Power Circuit Breake...
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 06:39:43 PMEDIT
What is the brown conductor for on the terminal strip?
Brown is not a color that should be used on her AC system.
For background what issue are you having with the shore power system?
Ok technically speaking, that is a terminal strip (do not always believe what an Owner's Manual says or CTY's terminology.)
Which black/white wires are from the SmartPlug?
It would be helpful if you post a pic of the front and back of your distribution panel.
What is the brown conductor for on the terminal strip?
Brown is not a color that should be used on her AC system.
For background what issue are you having with the shore power system?
Ok technically speaking, that is a terminal strip (do not always believe what an Owner's Manual says or CTY's terminology.)
Which black/white wires are from the SmartPlug?
It would be helpful if you post a pic of the front and back of your distribution panel.
#4
Main Message Board / Re: Shore Power Circuit Breake...
Last post by Tom Patterson - Today at 05:42:51 PMBelow is a photo of the AC bus bar. There are five wires to black, white and green. Four of each fall below the bus bar and are wrapped in electrical tape. There is no breaker on the panel or anywhere behind it. The 12AWG triplex wire coming off the back of the Smartplug runs straight into the roof of the cabinet in the head and from there to the bus bar. Where would the breaker have been located originally? A picture of one either on the panel, behind it, or mounted somewhere else would be helpful.
#5
Main Message Board / Re: Shore Power Circuit Breake...
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 03:49:43 PMThe shore power should not run straight to the bus powering the circuits.
Ok, I'm not educated on what a PO did or your particular panel (post a pic?) but, generally, the shore power cable runs to the panel main breaker, which feeds the bus that feeds the various breakers/circuits/equipment (like water heater.)
That's "generally" - on my '84 panel for instance there's no bus; the 30a Main feeds to the Pos and Neutral terminal strips and individual fuses are wired to the Pos terminal strip.
Ok, I'm not educated on what a PO did or your particular panel (post a pic?) but, generally, the shore power cable runs to the panel main breaker, which feeds the bus that feeds the various breakers/circuits/equipment (like water heater.)
That's "generally" - on my '84 panel for instance there's no bus; the 30a Main feeds to the Pos and Neutral terminal strips and individual fuses are wired to the Pos terminal strip.
#6
Main Message Board / Shore Power Circuit Breaker Lo...
Last post by Tom Patterson - Today at 03:20:31 PMWe're having issues with our shore power connection and I'm trying to find the 30amp breaker that should be between the plug and the AC bus bar. I've traced the connection from the Smartplug receptacle to the panel, and I don't a see a breaker anywhere in the line. The PO replaced the original shore power connection with the Smartplug, but I can't believe he bypassed/removed the breaker. Where would the original breaker be located?
#7
Main Message Board / Re: ? Sudden overheating?
Last post by Schulcb - Today at 03:15:23 PMHello All,
Sorry KWKloeber, the gauge is reading those values I quoted above with the engine cover open, and continues to give erroneous (high) reading with the engine cover closed.
The wiring harness with the S wire is 12 gauge, I believe, and the temporary wire I've used to by pass the wiring harness is 14 gauge. If the ground to the instrument panel is the culprit, wouldn't all of the gauges be giving incorrect readings?
Ron, I do have an infrared temp. gun and it consistently reads ~170 - 175'F.
Thanks,
Craig
Sorry KWKloeber, the gauge is reading those values I quoted above with the engine cover open, and continues to give erroneous (high) reading with the engine cover closed.
The wiring harness with the S wire is 12 gauge, I believe, and the temporary wire I've used to by pass the wiring harness is 14 gauge. If the ground to the instrument panel is the culprit, wouldn't all of the gauges be giving incorrect readings?
Ron, I do have an infrared temp. gun and it consistently reads ~170 - 175'F.
Thanks,
Craig
#8
Main Message Board / Re: ? Sudden overheating?
Last post by KWKloeber - Today at 01:07:26 PMQuote from: Ron Hill on Yesterday at 02:51:53 PMGuys : Before you start tearing things apart - spend a few $$ on a heat detection gun and see what the temperature of the engine really is!!
A thought
Ron
Perhaps you can post a link to your info about the engine cover grounding out the Temp switch. I could not locate it. Given what was explained so far that's the only explanation I see that makes any sense.
#9
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
Last post by High Current - Yesterday at 08:26:16 PMQuote from: KWKloeber on May 05, 2024, 10:42:35 PM@High Anxiety
I've previously posted about my same experience re: the fingertight aft nut and keel bedding so many times that my head hurts every time I repost about it.
Well, thanks for doing it one more time. I found your post quite helpful. I've read a lot of posts about keels, including a few of yours, but managed to miss the similarity with the aft nut.
QuoteAre you thinking that CTY bolted-up the keel nuts/washers into wet gelcoat? Doesn't seem logical to me. What does, is the known issue on C-30s of torquing the nuts so many times that the washers compress the glass and bury themselves in the gelcoat.
Maybe it's not gelcoat per se, but whatever brittle white material coats the bottom of the sump partially covered all of the washers, appeared to be original, and cracked free easily when I disturbed it. Photos below
QuoteThat said I'm unsure whether I would trust the yard with anything. Someone who blocks jack stands with 2x4s has (IMO only) questionable knowledge/conscientiousness and at worst doesn't care about their customers' yachts. Gimmeabreak -- don't they have lumber yards in ME?
No kidding. I have stories....
If I had time to do the work myself it wouldn't hesitate to DIY, but it's 4 hours away and I have young children who need me to pick them up from school every day. My main reason to re-bed NOW would be to preserve integrity of the bolts. BUT if I weren't going through this process I probably wouldn't be worrying about it...
QuoteSee above for (IMO) the danger of too-often and too-tighting of the keel nuts.
Keel nuts that are 40 ft-lbs shy do not cause the Catalina smile.
Does it crush the solid glass or only the wood core that I don't have?
I used to think similarly but managed to convince myself otherwise. Loose keel nuts put extra stress / strain on the keel-hull joint that could lead to cracks and water ingress. On the other hand, I agree that 65 vs. 105 ft-lb is probably enough pre-load either way; at 105 ft-lb = ~10,000 lbf, a single bolt could hold the entire keel if it were in pure, static tension.
Reasons in favor of re-torquing that I can think of:
1) Lead creep and other factors (see: corroded washer in my previous post) can reduce bolt tension over time
2) Low bolt tension can lead to uneven loading of the keel and excessive stress/strain in the joint, possibly compromising the joint / bedding
3) If a keel bolt has been severely corroded, I would rather have it snap off when I try to torque it on the hard than have it silently stop holding my keel.
------
(1) made me wonder: What's the coefficient of thermal expansion of our hulls? Does it matter at what temperature one torques the bolt? Were my bolts loose simply because it was April?
I'm going to assume the keel stub is one inch thick (0.0254 m).
This says CTE of fiberglass is 25E-6 m/m-C: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html 10 degC @ 1" would be 6.35E-6 m of expansion, or 0.025%. Stainless is pretty close but let's ignore that for now to get a worst-case.
If I assume some lubrication (because anti-galling), then 105 ft-lb is about 10,000 lb of clamping force ≈ 44kN. https://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_calc.htm
The washers are 1 7/8" diameter. Crudely, that amounts to 0.00178 m^2. 44kN / 0.00178 m^2 ≈ 25 MPa of stress.
Finally, looking here, one presumes strain is fairly linear at about 1% per 40 MPa: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Stress-strain-cure-for-fiberglass-Figure-6-The-stress-strain-curve-and-tyre-strip-for_fig4_305627338
Assuming I did it all right, 10C change in temperature causes 0.025% change in thickness which causes 1.8 MPa change in stress out of 25MPa total, before you consider that the stud is also contracting. So no, temperature isn't a huge factor. But that was fun!
#10
Main Message Board / Re: What's under the stern lad...
Last post by High Current - Yesterday at 05:19:48 PMI can also confirm there's an embedded, threaded something on my 1990 mk1.5. I got really nervous when I first looked under there and the studs had no nuts or washers, but I eventually put 2+2 together...