Just acquired a 1986 Catalina 34 Mk 1 tall rig. Apart from the maiden voyage to bring her home, my first task is to winterize. Somewhat daunting given the importance of doing it right. I have read the very good winterizing guide on this forum plus reviewing multiple posts and videos on line from others but inevitably few basic questions remain....
Some background, the boat is located is SE Michigan and I am used to working on cars, so hope to climb the steep leaning curve quickly.
My engine is the M25 3-cylinder diesel (21 hp). Runs great so far. I understand it has an open and closed cooling system. In which system is the thermostat located? Reason I ask is I plan on flushing the open system with pink antifreeze and want to be sure to clear all remaining water. Assume their is no thermostat to block the flow. I have NOT found reference to running the engine to a warmed (t.stat open) state. My conclusion is that the T. stat is in the closed loop where the green engine coolant resides. Please confirm/advise.
Correct engine oil - recommendations. This is very important on a modern car so I tend to overthink it. Was thinking Rotella (Shell) T6 full synthetic 5W-40.
Just read on this forum that the trans oil should also be addressed - type, weight, how?
Think I am clear on the fuel additives and and to make every effort to displace any water from all pipes, drains and tanks (aside from fuel tank) by adding pink antifreeze to each the three systems--sanitary, potable. I believe there are two (fresh water?) tanks - aft and to port. (Sanitary is on the starboard side.) Do they both hold/carry fresh water, or is one topped up with lake/sea water?
Thank you in advance for your advice and time.
Ray : You are correct that the "closed system" has the thermostat.
What I do is purchase 1 gallon of the lowest temp. non toxic engine antifreeze (-100F) (pink is for the potable fresh water system) stick the raw water intake hose into the gallon jug and run the engine. That should take care of the raw water system. In addition I remove the Zn anode from the heat exchanger and let the anti freeze drain out. I also fill the transmission to the top for winter and then suck it all out in the spring and add new T oil to the "ring" on the dipstick in the spring.
You said that the engine oil Rotella T6 full synthetic 5W-40. I caution you - that I hope that the engine has been on a synthetic oil diet?? There also is a 5W40 Mobile synthetic that I use.
Good luck with you winterizing (don't forget the scuppers and manual bilge pump!!)
Go in to our WiKi and look at Winterization. A lot of information on our C34 site!
A few thoughts
Hi Raymond -
I use the pink stuff to flush the raw water cooling system for the winter. If you use real antifreeze like Ron suggests please be careful and you'll have to find someway to catch and dispose of that toxic stuff. It tastes sweet to dogs and it will kill them. I assume all the animals would drink it. The pink stuff is non toxic.
Have fun with the new boat. Mine's still in the water South of Boston and we actually took her out Saturday.
Jim
Raymond
On the wiki site, under the "Manuals" page is the ops manual for the engine. 4-5? Yrs back I had updated and corrected the diagram that shows the seawater and freshwater flow paths. To get to Manuals you need to do a search on the wiki - for MANY years the link to that page has been incorrect and I have no way to fix it; the higher-ups need to do that.
The flow diagram is also here:
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/9626
Controversy abounds whether synthetic or good old dino is better for the kubota diesel. My feeling is, on a new engine it's ok to use syn for its life, but better to stick with what was historically used for an old engine. There are those who disagree. There is one thing for sure, the benefit of syn is cost due to extreme long life - and that is wasted money when we change oil annually rather than on an auto by mileage.
Many diesel oils are formulated for over the road heavy truck needs and not our needs. I'll stick with T5. (search and you'll find posts with different opinions on engine oil. Just follow the weight recommended by the manual and climate.
There's my thoughts/tips on draining and filling the tranny. Just ATF is what to use in our trannys.
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/11617
If I were to use pink stuff (I don't) I'd get as much water out of the system as possible to keep from diluting it and putting money out onto the ground.
Rodd Collins has good info on pink stuff. Bookmark his as a go-to resource!!
https://marinehowto.com/
https://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
The freshwater tanks are fresh water tanks (not discounting that a PO might have done something stupid...!)
Congrats on the boat purchase! It's an exciting time! How long was the maiden voyage? Solo?
RE winterizing:
-remember to use the non-toxic antifreeze especially in your potable water tanks
-disconnect all the batteries
-some individuals remove the raw water impeller, otherwise it could take a set over the winter
-some individuals loosen the alternator belt. I personally don't.
-I leave all the seacocks open while on the hard
-laying all cushions on their side, as opposed to flat down, can help reduce condensation on them
-depending on where you are, a shrink wrap/cover would be ideal
Raymond,
Most of the winterizing has already been discussed. I would mention, before pouring in the antifreeze bypass the water heater and drain it as much as possible. My winterization is use the -100 in the mechanical systems, engine raw water and air conditioning -50, the pink stuff, in potable water and head. Drain transmission and overfill with a fresh quart of ATF, in the spring drain down to correct level. Don't forget to check that the engine antifreeze is the correct level and right strength.
I'm with Ken, don't see any advantage to using synthetic oil in our Kobata engines. They were designed to use petroleum oil. But then if the engine has been run with synthetic I might keep using it.
Jim
Someone, please, explain to me - if best practice is followed when laying up on the hard for the off season, where seawater can accumulate and freeze in an m-25 or other Universal engine (m-35, 35A, 35B, XP, XPB)????
Guys : "if best practice is followed" there shouldn't be ANY untreated sea or fresh water to freeze!!
My thought
Back to winterizing.
You may want to put some antifreeze in the false bilges in the back part of the hull.
Cracked my hull in between the strut and rudder.
Easiest way was just pour some antifreeze down past the propane locker.
The bilge area is below the rear water tank.
I filled and glassed over the areas on my boat.
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 07, 2023, 02:28:44 PM
Guys : "if best practice is followed" there shouldn't be ANY untreated sea or fresh water to freeze!!
My thought
If best practice is followed there is nowhere water accumulates. NO water to freeze and no pink stuff needed. Possibly folks don't know what's best practice to lay up the engine!
Thanks everyone for the great input and feedback. Completed the first few steps yesterday. Ran the engine and flushed antifreeze through, displacing the water. :clap Hardest part was removing the hose. Fresh water tank now has pink. Determined I only have one fresh water tank on the starboard side. Ran pump and opened taps. Hot and cold now runs pink in the kitchen basin, but nothing in the bathroom basin/shower. Stop cock must be closed(?). Have to do a stop cock hunt for all drain points on next visit.
Somewhat worrisome, I had about 1 1/2" of clear water in the bilge. Pumped it out and completely dried with a towel. Will see if water accumulates again, but I recognize the boat is NOT shrink wrapped yet.
Also added distilled water to the two marine batteries. They are now on a solar charger that seems to be doing its job. Will see if full voltage returns after the cold start on the hard for the engine flush.
Thanks again everyone. No doubt I will have other questions for later.
Raymond
Not having the boat/engine long enough you might not have known/realized the "best practice" when laying up is to:
1. Pull the seawater pump impeller and reinstall (replace if necessary) in spring. While there check hose clamps and for evidence of pump seal failure.
2. Pull the end caps (at least the inlet side) of the heat exchanger to check for gunk against the small tubes, and pull/inspect (replace if necessary) the anode. While there check the forgotten hose (Hx to exhaust manifold) and all clamps.
3. Exercise the muffler petcock (replace if rusted shut) and same for the one on the TStat housing. While there check the hump hose and all clamps.
The dirty little FACT that mechanics who get big bucks to winterize don't want us to know, is there are (only) three places in the m-25/xpa/xpb/35/35a/35b where seawater can accumulate and freeze:
1) The seawater pump.
2) The heat exchanger.
3) The muffler.
Therefore if owners:
- Follow 1,2,3, there's NO water left in the seawater cooling system.
- Run pink stuff before 1,2,3, then they simply drain out what they paid to put in.
- Don't follow good practice and just run pink stuff, they're lazy and looking for trouble down the road.
Anyone who disputes that, I will be happy to discuss winterizing my m-25 (and others) since 1993, and and have NEVER run pink stuff through the raw water system (half that period laying up over BrrrrrUFFALO sub zero winters.)
Guys : I believe that most of us agree the the pink stuff is NOT for the engine winterization - it's for the other water systems- water heater, head, holding tank and water tanks.
I use the pink stuff but then DRAIN the water heater, the water tanks and the head. The pink stuff is in there for any water (just in case) that it can't come out!!!
A few thoughts
I would NOT let that highly toxic green stuff anywhere near my potable water....
And if you're winterizing the engine with it and letting dump on the ground you're poisoning the environment and violating federal law.
Quote from: Ted Pounds on November 11, 2023, 10:07:27 AM
I would NOT let that highly toxic green stuff anywhere near my potable water....
And if you're winterizing the engine with it and letting dump on the ground you're poisoning the environment and violating federal law.
Absolutely!
And if green stuff is left anywhere in the seawater system (e.g., muffler) or drained and left in the bilge -- then into the waterway it goes on the first run or bilge dump.
Using ANY antifreeze on the seawater side -- PER the MANUAL itself -- is NOT necessary.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11509.msg92909.html#msg92909
"To drain sea water system, disconnect hose end at sea water pump that comes from heat
exchanger. Lower free end of hose to a point approximately level with the front engine mount. This will allow the sea water to drain from heat exchanger and hoses. Loosen the 4 or 6 screws on the sea water pump cover plate. Tap the plate lightly to loosen it, this will allow pump to drain. After pump has drained, apply a light coat of lubrication to protect pump and impeller during storage and replace cover. Drain exhaust muffler and system separately."Folks have said that they use the "simple" method of pumping AF (pink or otherwise) thru -- it "ONLY" tasks a half day to winterize (had been said.) Why waste the time, and AF (which you dump onto the ground then drain out of the seawater system after pumping it in? Not logical common sense.
Quote
the the pink stuff is NOT for the engine winterization
Using P. Glycol (pink stuff) is exactly what
Winterization 101 states. Diluting it 50% (!!!) before pumping it thru to the exhaust isn't the best practice -- it will already get diluted when you mix it with what's in the system.
Just looking for "pink stuff" out the exhaust is NOT reliable to verify you have the level of protection required for YOUR climate. No one's eye is calibrated to say if there's 50%, 75%, or 100% of -50F or -100F P. Glycol in there, so please do not do that unless you are in the mildest climate. JUST drain her! But, if you INSIST on using AF instead of the easier method of draining dry, capture the discharge and test it (specific gravity) or visually, by comparing it to undiluted P. Glycol (example pic from Rodd Collins below.)
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/winterizing.175307/#post-1248751
Rodd's vid is here (the first part pertains to getting her up to temp; the very last part pertains to actually running thru the P. Glycol.)
https://youtu.be/PKky09u1fGU?si=3lBHzx4T8LBxdqmJ
Guys : there is a P. Glycol that goes down to -100F? degrees (not pink - kind of a dark green) - That's what I use for the engine!!
A thought
QuoteGuys : there is a P. Glycol that goes down to -50 degrees (not pink - kind of a dark green) - That's what I use for the engine!!
Around here it's -100 and using it in mechanical systems, engine, air-conditioner etc is usual practice. What I was told many years ago by someone I considered knowledgeable is that it's more corrosion resistant and kinder to the rubber parts than the pink. This may or may not be true, all I can say is that it works for me. FWIW I leave the impeller in and use it several seasons, when replaced it looks like it is good for several more and I use the boat a lot.
Factoid, read the label on the antifreeze. -50 or -100 is when it will burst a 1/2 inch copper pipe. I believe our plumbing is not as robust.
Jim
A different topic regarding winterizing - tying off the halyards when the boat is under cover. To avoid banging against the mast, I have tied them to temporary shroud cleats (install for winter and remove in spring). This past year I noticed that the cleats left a slight indentation in the shroud wire. It may not be meaningful, but I will be cautious about any further damage to the shrouds. All of the online information recommends running a messenger for winter storage. This is not hard, but it is one more chore and something else to go wrong come spring. Alternatively, I have seen one boat in our marina that tied a line to the turnbuckle, wrapped it around the shroud up through the cover and then tied off the halyard. It seems like it should work, but wonder if anyone had experience with this or another way to tie off the halyards with a boat cover.
Unable to tell from the post the limitations with your cover but options would seem to be bungee cords, webbing straps, line, putting protection (easy) under the cleats, etc.
Over the years I've removed them (nylon messingers) and also simply buried them in the mast and the remainder coiled/hung from the mast or boom) instead of total removal, and left them in place, twisted to prevent slapping (if interrupting airflow they are unable to resonate and don't slap.)
QuoteIt seems like it should work, but wonder if anyone had experience with this or another way to tie off the halyards with a boat cover.
I gather the halyards that are forward of the mast, jib, extra jib and spinnaker, attach and tie with a small line to a well used 5/8 dock line, think I use 2 attached together with a zeplin knot then send them to the mast top. I then wrap the dock line around the forestay, think candy cane or barbershop pole, then thru the jib tack shackle, to keep the foil from spinning, back to a forward cleat. That stops most of the shaking/pumping of the forestay. I have in-mast furling, I made up some spacers and line to keep the foil quiet and not banging so the main halyard is also at the mast head. That way the only sections of the halyards exposed to weather are a couple of inches at the shackle end and what ever is from the mast exit slots to the cover.
I quit using shroud cleats. I use for my flag halyards what the tall ship people call a midshipman's hitch much like a rolling or taunt line hitch. I do an extra turn around the shroud 3 total plus the lock turn. It's the kind of hitch that needs to be formed correctly to work. I find that I seldom have the flag halyards come loose and nothing for the genoa sheets to catch on.
Jim
Like this. Note the midshipmen's hitch is with a doubled up line, each turn is snaped into place below the last turn and pulled tight. Also the last, locking turn has come undone, I think it's good till the cover comes off in the spring. Not my best.
Jim
Guys : I've never had a problem with the main halyard beating against the mast. I just tighten it up and the winter cover ties around the mast is tight. Then when on the boat in the winter I just pull that halyard and retighten if it need it (it's held by the rope stopper).
Another way is to take a piece of shock cord and go from the halyard horizontally to the outer stay!!
A few thoughts