I recently completed an upgrade of my original 1987 Catalina Motorola 55 AMP internally regulated alternator with the C34 project Electrical Upgrade recommendation of a Blue Circle 100 AMP alternator (perfect fit rebuilt alternator) and a new Balmar 3 stage external regulator. After many checks and heavy expectation of a wiring issue, the wiring appears to be correct. I have also connected the AO directly to the battery bank with a #2 wire. I have checked the voltages of the regulator and the alternator with expected outputs. Twice now, though, the alternator has overheated (quickly way too hot to touch), started to burn, and fried the diodes (perhaps not in that order). This occurred once with partially depleted batteries (4 T105s in series-parallel) and once after fully charged. After the local alternator shop replaced the diodes the first time, I completed some more further testing after the alternator was re-installed while connected to shore power and charging the batteries at various RPMs. Everything seemed to work correctly, no burn smell, and the expected voltage output. As soon as I left the dock and kicked up some RPMs, I could smell the alternator burning and then noticed the voltage drop to battery voltage.
I believe the new external regulator is working and the alternator seemed okay at first and then fixed, checked again to be working correctly. I certainly think that if I get the alternator fixed again, the same situation will occur. The only thing that "I think" occurs differently from when it has worked until it fails is:
1) connected to shore power and charging the batteries (this may or may not have been the case during the first failure)
2) slightly longer run time at higher RPMs (after leaving the dock)
I was heading out on a one week vacation on the boat, so I ran the engine with the key off after starting the engine to cut out the alternator output. I kept my batteries charged with a Honda geni and shore power while away. While continuing to diagnosis the issue, I fairly quickly slightly smell the burning from the alternator if I leave the key on after starting the engine. As expected, there is no charging voltage coming from the alternator.
Any thoughts on what might be causing this? I am at a loss unless there is actually a failure of the alternator or regulator which I do not think is likely the issue. The marina yard mechanics are also at a loss, but their skills (or patience to resolve an issue) are sometimes questionable.
Do you have a battery monitor to tell how much current the alternator is putting out? I had almost the exact same problem when I installed the Blue Circle alternator and external regulator. Short term I opened the alternator door to improve cooling and put it in "small engine mode." Long term I added the temperature sensor and haven't had a problem, since.
Also, make sure the belt tension is correct. I've been told too tight and the bearings can cause heat. Too loose and a slipping belt can cause heat.
I checked the belt tension pretty closely, and it seemed right. As for the battery monitor, I checked the voltage after installing the repaired alternator. It was putting out the voltage as expected. I did not have a monitor on it when it failed because I thought it was in the clear. I was considering jumping the regulator into Small Engine Mode and possibly adding the temperature sensor due to running hot issues reported by others. It just seems that it should not be getting that hot that fast and burning out the alternator. The second time it failed, it was within a few minutes of running the RPMs at 2500 or so. Further, the batteries were fully charged so presumably the regulator should have been calling for little output. It was also running for some time (30 minutes) at a slow idle before without any visible issue. I read a lot of posts regarding the heat that this setup (100 AMP alternator, 3-stage regulator) can cause following the first failure, but none of those posts talked about the alternator getting so hot that it started smoking and fried.
Is that what happened in your experience?
It is annoying and a chore to get the alternator off, take it somewhere to be repaired, pick it up, and re-install it. I am hoping to avoid a lot of guess and check. I see you are in Chicago like me. I have taken an alternator to P & G Keene Electrical in Bridgeview before. they do a good job, but maybe you have another place you recommend. Thanks for the feedback.
Eric
ef : You need to call Balmar (360)435-6100 and tell them your problem.
The alternator only puts out what the voltage regular tells it to, after sensing the state(charge level) of the battery bank.
It almost sounds to me that the voltage regulator is "seeing" very low or 0 voltage!!
A 450 Ah bank of wets will take more than the BC alt can dish out. When the alt heats up it puts out even less thus requiring even longer at max output. AGM & Gel batteries also very often fry alts that don't cool well.
The simple fix is to add the Balmar temp sensor for the alternator and go into belt manager and dial back the field % so the alt can never run at full output.... This alt likely does not dissipate heat as well as it should.
Quote from: efiste on July 09, 2012, 11:43:16 AM
I checked the belt tension pretty closely, and it seemed right. As for the battery monitor, I checked the voltage after installing the repaired alternator. It was putting out the voltage as expected. I did not have a monitor on it when it failed because I thought it was in the clear. I was considering jumping the regulator into Small Engine Mode and possibly adding the temperature sensor due to running hot issues reported by others. It just seems that it should not be getting that hot that fast and burning out the alternator. The second time it failed, it was within a few minutes of running the RPMs at 2500 or so. Further, the batteries were fully charged so presumably the regulator should have been calling for little output. It was also running for some time (30 minutes) at a slow idle before without any visible issue. I read a lot of posts regarding the heat that this setup (100 AMP alternator, 3-stage regulator) can cause following the first failure, but none of those posts talked about the alternator getting so hot that it started smoking and fried.
Is that what happened in your experience?
It is annoying and a chore to get the alternator off, take it somewhere to be repaired, pick it up, and re-install it. I am hoping to avoid a lot of guess and check. I see you are in Chicago like me. I have taken an alternator to P & G Keene Electrical in Bridgeview before. they do a good job, but maybe you have another place you recommend. Thanks for the feedback.
Eric
Eric,
We really need more information on exactly how this is wired and installed. Where is the alt sense wire, battery switch, alt output wire, etc. etc...? If the batts were in-fact fully charged there should be no way you burned up the alt due to temp from load acceptance..
It is sounding a lot like an install problem? We also need specifics. Statements such as "voltage expected" tells us very little and we ideally need to know what the regulator is programmed for, all settings, where all the wires go, alt ground wire, terminals on the back of the BC alt etc. etc...
Why are you turning off the key with the engine running? Do you have a combiner, Echo charger etc.??
I can understand your frustration, maybe you just have a defective alternator. I bought a 55 amp mando Alternator from Harvey at Blue Circle, he is just down the road from me in WI, it was defective out of the box, when the batteries needed a charge, the alternator would heat up so hot it would seize.
I took it to my local auto electric shop, he said a alternator cannot seize electrically, he tested it and was able to put a load on it. it started to heat up like on the boat, and when we took it apart, we found the rotor was rubbing on the case when it would heat up while charging. This only occurred when the battery's were low, like after a night on the hook. If I disconnected the AO, the alternator would run cool, course it wasn't putting out any amperage.
I took it back to blue circle twice, we couldn't duplicate the problem with Harveys testing equipment, he didn't have any way to put a load on the alternator to simulate charging. it wouldn't heat up in his shop, so he couldn't justify a refund
weeks of head scratching, buying new batteries, running new wire, and smelling that hot alternator, it boiled down to the bad alternator from Blue Circle. I bought the identical alternator from my local electric shop, and life was good again. However I did learn a lot.
My original Mando failed last year and new one is also heating up when I put the selcetor switch on "ALL".
My buddy has a 55 amp alternator (not a Mando) and he charges 2-4D's and a Gp-27 starting battery and his is nice and cool.
His alternator cost about $350.00 and the Mando was $125.00.
Going to replace the Mondo with a higher grade unit.
Quote from: Bobg on July 09, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
I can understand your frustration, maybe you just have a defective alternator. I bought a 55 amp mando Alternator from Harvey at Blue Circle, he is just down the road from me in WI, it was defective out of the box, when the batteries needed a charge, the alternator would heat up so hot it would seize.
I took it to my local auto electric shop, he said a alternator cannot seize electrically, he tested it and was able to put a load on it. it started to heat up like on the boat, and when we took it apart, we found the rotor was rubbing on the case when it would heat up while charging. This only occurred when the battery's were low, like after a night on the hook. If I disconnected the AO, the alternator would run cool, course it wasn't putting out any amperage.
I took it back to blue circle twice, we couldn't duplicate the problem with Harveys testing equipment, he didn't have any way to put a load on the alternator to simulate charging. it wouldn't heat up in his shop, so he couldn't justify a refund
Pardon me for finding the humor in this.. A guy is selling "High Output" alternators but has no means of testing them??? How can an alternator shop not have a load testing machine especially if selling high output alternators for marine use??
blue circle charged $180.00 for a new mando, but he still wanted my old motorola for exchange. The one I bought from my auto electric shop cost $130.00 no exchange. Yeah, I was somewhat miffed. as far as the testing equipment, it was a electric motor running my alternator with a belt, the AO connected to a battery, I am sure he could test it enough to show output to see if it was working at all. like at a auto shop. Maybe he tests high output alternators some other way, or someone else somewhere else does it. Or maybe he knows what they need to make 100 amps when he builds them I don't know. I am just saying what he had for me.
At my local Electric shop, they really had a fancy machine, he took the pully off and bolted the alternator directly to it, it had a dial to simulate any load you needed to put on there.
I am going to take the alternator in to be checked out. It has to be removed to be repaired or replaced anyway. I have a very good shop around that I have used before (not the ones that fixed it after the first failure) who should be able to load test it to determine if the problem is with the BC alternator. I should have some information back by Thursday or Friday. In the meantime, I have also ordered a Balmar alternator temperature sensor. This seems prudent anyway regardless of what is determined since it is expected that this setup will run the alternator pretty hot. I will be out at the boat tonight to remove the alternator and will take notes or a picture of what is connected for more clarity in my description. Thanks for the input and help.
Eric
Eric, it is truly disconcerting when these things happen.
In this topic, we discussed the issues with hot alternators:
Small Engine Mode (read the link to the hot alternator topic, too)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html)
Please read or reread the link to the hot alternator topic, too, because it mimics exactly what your issue seems to be (other than a defective alternator). Replies #4 and #20 deal with the concepts of buying a high output alternator and then deliberately reducing the output to keep the alternators from getting hot!
FWIW, I ordered another 100A alternator from BC because I was experiencing difficulties with my 2 or 3 year old BC from Harvey. I reported and updated the Critical Upgrades page to include the ALTERNATOR PIVOT BOLT brought to light on other forums and by Maine Sail and others. It has already been included in the C34 Tech wiki for the alternator bracket system upgrade.
I attribute this to a couple of things:
1. The pivot bolt allowed the alternator to wobble. Badly. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg47017.html#msg47017 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg47017.html#msg47017)
2. I had recently corrected the battery sense wire from the back of the alternator to the house bank. The alternator, instead of just reading its own voltage, was now correctly reading the house bank voltage and outputting as it should. But now higher than before.
3. In addition to the pivot bolt, the lower bolt is reported to need an M8 screw rather than SAE which came with the alternator bracket kit. I tried an M8 bolt on the bottom of the adjustment arm, but since I'd had an SAE bolt in there for so long, it didn't work. In addition, Maine Sail has recently reported on another forum (and right here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5127.msg47013.html#msg47013 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5127.msg47013.html#msg47013)) that he had been using longer bolts for both the top and bottom of the brackets and adding nuts at the back for both, which tends to keep much better belt tension. When I get my new alternator, I will do so.
I ordered my new BC alternator from Harvey on May 21. Turns out he has had a heart attack and pneumonia, but I spoke with him this morning and he is back in the shop.
Maine Sail has also reported on the Leece Neville alternators. His writeup and links to his own pbase website for adding external regulation to a LN unit can be found here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5686.msg35769.html#msg35769 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5686.msg35769.html#msg35769) The ASE model # for a 90A LN unit is 110-602 and the kit is 114-307. I recently spoke to Bob at ASE and he confirmed those. It's also here: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=106489 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=106489)
After all this, there may be some advantages to considering another one of Maine Sail's concepts: Musings Regarding External Regulation - http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392)
My next steps:
1. Install my new BC from Harvey
2. Consider amp manager as well as Small Engine Mode (which just makes even less output!!!)
3. Try a Leece Neville with the external kit
4. Forget about external regulation altogether
Good luck, Eric, keep us posted.
Quote from: mainesail on July 09, 2012, 03:54:45 PM
Eric,
We really need more information on exactly how this is wired and installed. Where is the alt sense wire, battery switch, alt output wire, etc. etc...? If the batts were in-fact fully charged there should be no way you burned up the alt due to temp from load acceptance..
It is sounding a lot like an install problem? We also need specifics. Statements such as "voltage expected" tells us very little and we ideally need to know what the regulator is programmed for, all settings, where all the wires go, alt ground wire, terminals on the back of the BC alt etc. etc...
Why are you turning off the key with the engine running? Do you have a combiner, Echo charger etc.??
"Alt ground wire" Eric, did you add a separate ground wire from the alternator to the engine main negative connection? Where is your battery sense wire? Back of the alternator to the regulator or to the house bank? Basic wet cell program on the regulator? Do you have a battery monitor? If so, which one?
Quote from: efiste on July 09, 2012, 08:23:33 AM
I recently completed an upgrade of my original 1987 Catalina Motorola 55 AMP internally regulated alternator with the C34 project Electrical Upgrade recommendation of a Blue Circle 100 AMP alternator (perfect fit rebuilt alternator) and a new Balmar 3 stage external regulator. After many checks and heavy expectation of a wiring issue, the wiring appears to be correct. I have also connected the AO directly to the battery bank with a #2 wire. I have checked the voltages of the regulator and the alternator with expected outputs. Twice now, though, the alternator has overheated (quickly way too hot to touch), started to burn, and fried the diodes (perhaps not in that order). This occurred once with partially depleted batteries (4 T105s in series-parallel) and once after fully charged. After the local alternator shop replaced the diodes the first time, I completed some more further testing after the alternator was re-installed while connected to shore power and charging the batteries at various RPMs. Everything seemed to work correctly, no burn smell, and the expected voltage output. As soon as I left the dock and kicked up some RPMs, I could smell the alternator burning and then noticed the voltage drop to battery voltage.
I believe the new external regulator is working and the alternator seemed okay at first and then fixed, checked again to be working correctly. I certainly think that if I get the alternator fixed again, the same situation will occur. The only thing that "I think" occurs differently from when it has worked until it fails is:
1) connected to shore power and charging the batteries (this may or may not have been the case during the first failure)
2) slightly longer run time at higher RPMs (after leaving the dock)
I was heading out on a one week vacation on the boat, so I ran the engine with the key off after starting the engine to cut out the alternator output. I kept my batteries charged with a Honda geni and shore power while away. While continuing to diagnosis the issue, I fairly quickly slightly smell the burning from the alternator if I leave the key on after starting the engine. As expected, there is no charging voltage coming from the alternator.
Any thoughts on what might be causing this? I am at a loss unless there is actually a failure of the alternator or regulator which I do not think is likely the issue. The marina yard mechanics are also at a loss, but their skills (or patience to resolve an issue) are sometimes questionable.
Just as a side note: at a 3% voltage drop #2 wire @ 100 amp is only good for a very, very short distance.
Guys : I am far from an electrical whiz.
BUT, It never made any sence to me to try charging the batteries from two differant sources at the same time - the engine alternator and the shore power AC charger.
It is a simple matter to shut off the AC charger or all AC before you start the engine, if your head is NOT up and locked!!
A thought
Quote from: lazybone on July 11, 2012, 04:25:04 PM
Just as a side note: at a 3% voltage drop #2 wire @ 100 amp is only good for a very, very short distance.
In a way, you're right. However: http://genuinedealz.com/voltage-drop.html
20 feet (out & back, remember) of #2 with 70A is 3.75%. Because of battery acceptance, we never see more than 60A out of our 100A alternator. And with the Small Engine Mode, it's well less than that. Add in the regulator's amp management feature and the #2 wiring is more than adequate.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 12, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
Quote from: lazybone on July 11, 2012, 04:25:04 PM
Just as a side note: at a 3% voltage drop #2 wire @ 100 amp is only good for a very, very short distance.
In a way, you're right. However: http://genuinedealz.com/voltage-drop.html
20 feet (out & back, remember) of #2 with 70A is 3.75%. Because of battery acceptance, we never see more than 60A out of our 100A alternator. And with the Small Engine Mode, it's well less than that. Add in the regulator's amp management feature and the #2 wiring is more than adequate.
And if you have an external regulator, and sense the battery as you should, then the regulator compensates for the voltage drop once it hits absorption mode....
So, I have had the Blue Circle Alternator rebuilt (again). This time by my more trusted local Auto Electric shop with high output testing equipment. They thought the BC alternator was undersized for 100 AMP. They replaced the Stator wires, added more robust diodes, and swapped the (in their view) worn pulley. They tested it on there load machine, and it easily maintained 100 AMPs out.
I re-installed it last week with a new Balmar alternator temperature sensor. I used my newly purchased belt tension tool to get the belt just right. That tool is a great addition to my bag, btw. It runs hot (as expected), but never gets above the default 107 C temperature threshold at the regulator. Everything seems to be working fine.
In the end, I could have almost paid for a decent Balmar alternator for the cost of the repairs of the BC alternator and my time. Buyer beware. I am not sure I could recommend buying an alternator from Blue Circle for this project. Maybe mine was just the exception, but it seems as if at least 1 or 2 other people have had the same experience. Too bad, because the rest of the project went fairly smoothly using the advice and assistance of the Catalina 34 Association.
Thanks for everyone's help. Now, on to the dedicated starting battery and the 95 W solar panel!!
One other comment... I was not expecting (naively, probably) such an affect on engine performance due to the new alternator. It really affects my motoring speed (1.5-2 kts)! I will probably add the Small Engine Mode switch to be able to cut back the alternator if/when more speed is needed. I do not like motoring. When I have no other choice, though, I might as well get where I am going as fast as I can.
Really glad to hear you got this sorted out.
Balmar? Why would anyone spend that kinda $$ for what is essentially a Leece Neville alternator that only costs $200. You might want to read my earlier post on that on page one of this thread.
Also, please, please, please check your alternator pivot bolt as suggested earlier.
Good luck. I haven't had that lugging issue with the engine, perhaps because of our use of the small engine mode. I highly recommend it, as discussed in the link I provided especially when you first start out for a day after a night on the hook; not necessary for a daysail. That's been our experience with the 100A BC alternator.
Quote from: efiste on July 20, 2012, 07:42:11 AM
I re-installed it last week with a new Balmar alternator temperature sensor. I used my newly purchased belt tension tool to get the belt just right. That tool is a great addition to my bag, btw. It runs hot (as expected), but never gets above the default 107 C temperature threshold at the regulator. Everything seems to be working fine.
The alternator temperature sensor uses the same posts on the regulator as the small engine mode.
The SMALL ENGINE MODE requires a toggle switch between alternator heat sense quick connect spades on the regulator board. Switch in one position lets the full power signal to the alternator. Other position is 50% of required output.
All the toggle switch does is a manual initiation of the alternator heat sensor. You could put them in parallel (i.e., install the toggle AND the sensor) and get the same results (manual AND automatic). I chose manual, but putting the alternator sensor on makes it automatic.
If you start up your engine after a night on the hook, what you will find when you start motoring right away at cruising speed is that the temp sensor will kick in pretty quickly anyway when the alternator gets hot from the initial startup load to fill the house bank (see the "hot alternator" topic). Then it's simply a management issue: do you depend on waiting until the alternator gets hot or do you use the s.e.m. manually. I'd do the latter to avoid overheating the alternator.
Your boat, your choice. :D
Not too sure which regulator "efiste" has, but my Balmar ARS 5 has seperate posts for both the alteranator and battery temp sensors.
Sure wish we could get Spell Check back (that we're probably paying for)!! A few thoughts
All the regulators have separate battery and alternator temperature sensors.
Google "iespell" - the spell check on this board is, ahem, clunky. "iespell" is very simple and works across forums. I've been using it for years.