As a newby to both sailing and specifically C34s I am looking for the wisdom of the community. I have purchased a 1988 C34 tall rig with the wing keel, and while the boat is an overall good condition it needs new standing and running rigging, as well as, new sails. If you had the opportunity to refit your boat, what would be the "ultimate" setup? One of the biggest problems I am trying to figure out is ability to reef from the cockpit. I am planning to single hand this boat primarily on the Chesapeake, but also want to set it up so I can take it coastal cruising. Looking through technical notes and reading posts here I am getting a bit overwhelmed. I am about to make a significant investment and planning to keep this boat for 5-8 years, so would like to get it "right" without having the practical knowledge. My experience with sailing is ASA 101-104, sailing on a sail only 24 foot boat with hank on sails, Bene 41 with everything furling and autopilot, and Seawind 1190 catamaran for a week last May.
Welcome.
I found one of the most helpful sailing aids is being able to reef from the safety of the cockpit.
If you are a C34IA member you can access this November 2003 tech note:
https://c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/Double_Line_Double_Reefing.pdf
All the best with your new boat.
Quick off topic question Stu... where did you run your rigid vang control to? It seems with mine that there is going to be plenty of mechanical advantage such that i wont ever need the winch and thus it wouldnt need to occupy one of the rope clutch spots. Is a cam cleat enough to hold it?
You won't need the winch for the hard vang but you will need a cleat OR a rope clutch. For me it worked to use one of my starboard side's triple rope clutches as there is limited space on the cabin top.
Noah... mine is presently in my port side tripple clutch (just upgraded from a single.
Noah, our boat came with what looks like a Garhauer rigid vang (no identifying marks on it whatsoever) but I have yet to figure out how the correct routing of the lines involved. There were two blocks involved with the system but nothing was rigged correctly when we bought the boat and I haven't found much info online. I've tried a few routing configurations but have found that somewhere in the system the vang line drags and takes considerable force to operate.
If by some wonderful chance someone you or someone else on this thread has a photo or instructions to share, it would be most appreciated.
Medved,
To circle this thread back to your question, I dont think you can go too wrong with new sails and new rigging (standing and running) the basic running rigging is where I'd start. Get the boat all together and sail it a bit. You can always rig more things (like additional reef points and bringing additional control lines aft) as you see fit. The value of getting the boat together and start sailing it is that you'll begin to understand what is valuable to you!
As for what I like, bring most of the control lines aft. As for sails, you might want to get the counsel of local sailors with a similar mast head rig. The local sailing conditions often direct how big the head sail is or how many reef points a main has.
I hope this helps some.
My vang runs from the vang purchase blocks to a block attached to the bottom of the vang, then through my deck organizer, then through my starboard cabintop triple clutch. Makes a perfect back scratcher for the dog! Sorry not better pics.
Quote from: waughoo on February 03, 2021, 05:09:46 PM
Quick off topic question Stu... where did you run your rigid vang control to? It seems with mine that there is going to be plenty of mechanical advantage such that i wont ever need the winch and thus it wouldnt need to occupy one of the rope clutch spots. Is a cam cleat enough to hold it?
Yes, I have a swivel cam cleat, one of those on a ss riser, forward port outbord side of the area under the dodger. Because of the high purchase level on the vang's tackle, it's not a large load at all.
Alex, look at the link in my Reply #1 on this topic. It has photos of exactly what's there.
Sailing on the Chesapeake you may consider a 130 head sail and a single reef in the main for single handling with a stack pack. Usually on the bay you will know ahead of time if a front is coming and you can reef before leaving your slip. If it is blowing hard on the bay you may consider just sailing with the head sail. I can't see someone new to sailing and the 34 putting themselves in a situation single handling where the would be out in conditions that would be unsafe. This is just me and you may be one of those guys that can pull it off. The early 34 s are set up with external boom reefing which cleats off at the front of the boom. It also has an internal boom out haul which is at the front of the boom. JMO
Quote from: Stu Jackson on February 04, 2021, 10:40:35 AM
Alex, look at the link in my Reply #1 on this topic. It has photos of exactly what's there.
I figured it was in that link and thats what set me about asking. I just wasnt sure which one was the vang. I'll look at it again now that i know it is in there somewhere. Thanks Stu.
Alex, some of my takeaways that I remember from Stu's set-up is that his jib furling halyard is cleated and coiled at the mast, freeing up clutch space. Don't know if he has a spare jib halyard or spinn halyard, and if those are clutched? He uses double-line reefing led aft. To facilitate reefing aft he uses double-stacked deck organizers. I will reread his post too!
Noah... thanks for the insight. Looking at your photos I see the grey w/white fleck line in a cam cleat at the mast which then goes to the turning blick and out to the deck organizer. What is the significance of that set up? Is that a temporary holder for the main halyard for reefing which can be pulled out back at the cabin top when retensioning the halyard? (Completely guessing but it seems like a plausible use).
Yep, it is my main halyard. A trick I picked-up from reading this Forum! 8)
Most times I raise the main quickly single handing by "jumping" the halyard at the mast, lock it in the cam cleat, then go aft, pullout the slack, winch-up the last foot or so and lock it in the clutch. The cam cleat on side of mast pops as soon as I pullout the halyard slack and tension from cockpit. I should/could have put it higher on the mast, but was worried it wouldn't release. Hasty decision. Oops!
Alex, Noah is right about my rigging.
While we're here and gettin' good describing what each others have :D that cam cleat is for more easily raising the mainsail from the cockpit without having to go forward again. I remember describing it here years ago, and former Commodore Rick Allen had one I had photographed. Noah implemented this idea very nicely.
Quote from: waughoo on February 04, 2021, 06:28:58 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on February 04, 2021, 10:40:35 AM
Alex, look at the link in my Reply #1 on this topic. It has photos of exactly what's there.
I figured it was in that link and thats what set me about asking. I just wasnt sure which one was the vang. I'll look at it again now that i know it is in there somewhere. Thanks Stu.
Yes, Alex, you can follow the vang line through the pictures. White thin line with blue flecks. Old pre-digital photos that we scanned into jpgs.
Thank you Stu and all. I will keep researching and talking to riggers. Will share what I am thinking of doing here to get specific feedback.
Noah,
Do you get any chafing of the vang line at the deck organizer turning block due the angle of entry? To avoid that, I replaced one of the mast base blocks with a double and ran the line from the vang block to the double to the deck organizer. That dropped the line down enough to run fair.
Regards,
Ed
Noah,
Thanks for the photos, although they are only somewhat helpful for what I'm looking for. The problem isn't the routing back to the cockpit, ours is routed back to a triple clutch on the ports side cabin top. My exact problem is the routing of the lines on the vang itself. I'm also not sure my vang is exactly like yours but since everything is off of the boom I'm going to go down and get a couple of shots of it this weekend.
I do like that jam cleat for the main halyard on the mast though, that was a big bonus included with your photo(s)!!! I have a spare jam cleat that's been living in my parts box for years and now it's got a home and purpose, much obliged on that point sir!!!
Eric- if you zoom in on my dog's (Mr. Milo), back scratcher photo you should be sble to see how my vang lines are run along side the piston.
Eric,
Between Noah's picture and mine attached below, you should be able to trace the routing on the Garhauer solid vang.
Hi Medved,
While there is much good information on this thread about how and where to lead the vang control line, I think your initial question was more like "what would sailors on this forum, with considerable C34 sailing experience most recommend if they were purchasing new sails, standing rigging, and running rigging"? Let's take these one at a time.
My long departed and very beloved father used to say "The easiest thing in the world is to spend someone else's money". Thus, one might recommend carbon fiber sails, rod or even carbon fiber standing rigging, and all Vectran cored running rigging. One could quickly spend more money in these three areas alone than the market value of an entire 20 - 30 year old C34!
So, I will go in the other direction. How can one achieve the most "bang for the buck"?
Regarding standing rigging, I and I believe most others would say that for anything except a full out racing machine, conventional 19 strand SS wire rope will provide the greatest "bang for the buck", and if checked periodically, not grossly overstressed by sailing in a hurricane, and maintained properly, should last for a minimum of 15 years and probably even longer. The standing rigging on Pleiades is inspected every other year, has ZERO "fishooks", zero rust, is never sailed in winds over 40 knots, and is now 30 years old. I probably will upgrade to all new standing rigging next year - just because at 31 years we are probably dancing on thin ice.
Regarding running rigging, again unless you plan to do a lot of racing, conventional Dacron (viz. polyester) line works fine for most applications. One "modest upgrade" I might heartily suggest is the use of Regatta Braid for the jib sheets and main sheet, since I absolutely detest "hockles" in running rigging, and lines like "Sta-Set" are very prone to hockling (i.e. twisting itself into a pretzel that will then not pass through a fairlead, or a self-tailer on a winch). Regatta Braid, on the other hand almost never hockles! Also, if your budget will allow, I definitely would look into a bit more exotic lines with significantly lower stretch for the main & jib halyards (some stretch in a spinnaker halyard is OK to minimize shock loads when the chute suddenly re-fills in a fresh gust of wind). I got really tired of having to regularly re-tension the former Sta-Set X halyards after luff wrinkles would re-appear as the wind increased. I switched to a Vectran cored line by Yale about five years ago. The extra cost was probably $200, but it is now an absolute joy to apply winch tension to the main and jib and KNOW that there will not be a bunch of luff wrinkles 15 minutes later.
By far, the biggest impact - and the biggest cost - will be a new suit of sails. Here the influence of local conditions will be significant. In predominantly lighter air areas you may want a bit larger headsail, while in windier areas a smaller headsail is better IMHO. Tacking is much easier and faster with a smaller headsail, especially so in heavier winds and with minimal crew. I definitely would recommend a loose footed mainsail (better sail shape down near the boom, and much easier to secure reef ties around the foot of the mainsail when reefing), as well as four full length battens (again, better sail shape head to foot). A square top or more roach at the leech might be nice if you were racing, but they add expense, complexity, and only modest gains in performance. Finally, I would seriously recommend a minimum sail cloth weight of 7 oz. / square yard, and perhaps even 8 oz. Lighter weight is fine for very light winds, but it only takes one sail at high wind speed (intentional or unintentional) to pretty much permanently "blow-out" a sails shape.
As a physicist, I always used to say "angular momentum, not difference of opinion actually makes the world go around", but indeed you will get different opinions from different sailors, in different sailing areas. Hopefully, my comments above will help you make some important decisions. If you replace all three the performance of your C34 will be significantly improved, but I fully understand that within reasonable budget constraints, you really want to "get it right the first time". All the best in your quest.
Fair winds & following seas,
Paul
1990 C34 - 1068,
Tall Rig, Full Keel.
Stu, (and others): Stu, I know you cleat your primary jib halyard on the mast but... if you have a spare jib halyard run, do you take up a cabin top clutch for it, or is it cleated at the mast?
Quote from: Noah on February 05, 2021, 10:32:03 AM
Stu, (and others): Stu, I know you cleat your primary jib halyard on the mast but... if you have a spare jib halyard run, do you take up a cabin top clutch for it, or is it cleated at the mast?
My spare jib halyard stays on the mast, too. I cleat the standing end off on a Johnson shroud cleat on the port side forward lower.
For Alex, the reason I can and do tie the jib halyard off at the mast is because of the way I use my ProFurl jib system. Instead of using the jib halyard to tension the luff, I use a tack pennant made of thin high strength line in a few loops between the tack grommet and the D shackle on the top of the furling drum. I unfurl the jib and adjust the tack based on wind conditions.
From the pictures in my Double Line Reefing link, the vang line comes into the top of the stacked deck organizer.
Those pictures were taken with our old dodger which had slits. But they do show the traveler control lines led aft to simple Johnson bullet fairleads and then to the can cleats on the aft end of the cabintop. The new dodger has simple single grommet holes one on each side for those traveler control lines.
Medved,
I also have an 1988 TR/WK and single hand a lot in the Chesapeake. Here are few suggestions:
- If you have a Hood continuous line roller furler upgrade to a single line furler with a long leg link plate so you can have better visibility.
- when you upgrade the furler, you should replace the forestay. And if you use your old sail, you will need to get it cut. Otherwise get a new Genoa for the new furler. New furler and sail is at least a $5K upgrade.
- Set up your headsail with reefing marks. I find reefing the jib the easiest thing to do if the wind kicks up and I need to act fast. If you get a new headsail, get one designed for reefing.
- If they aren't already, run all lines aft. For a vang, you might need to add a new deck organizer.
- An Autopilot, I feel, is absolutely necessary, especially if you doing solo cruising. If you don't have one and you plan to singlehand a lot, you might want to install one first thing!
- Main sail reefing can be done different ways but what is key is that you can do it from the cock pit. One reef point should be enough for the bay.
- Lazy jacks or sail pack are very helpful when dropping the main and needing to get it
tidy quickly so you can get back to the wheel.
-new running rigging is an easy upgrade. Good points in the earlier post.
- If you have concerns about your standing rigging, get a rigging inspection and ask them to prioritize any replacement/ upgrades, if necessary.
- Headsail size - if you plan to sail a lot in the summer in the Bay expect light winds. So a larger headsail (130+) can be helpful. You can always reef the genny and make it smaller.
- If you have a '88 you probably don't have a full batten main but I would not feel compelled to switch to one. I can usually hoist my traditional baton main without the winch which means I can raise the sail quickly. If your old main is stretch out, upgrading is a big improvement and get one with contour lines since it will help you learn more about sail trim and twist.
- Traveller upgrade is nice. I have the original but I added new blocks and routed the lines through rope clutches (vs jam cleats) which is a huge improvement. The clutches allow me to quickly adjust the traveller which is important when singlehanding.
- I don't have adjustable Genoa blocks and don't think I will add them since it's another line to trip on and I'm not racing.
Hope that helps.
Thank you WTunnessen for the tips. I sent you a PM not sure if you got it.
I refitted with the Rolly Tasker fully battened loose foot Main, 135 roller furler, and asym with sock about 7 years ago. They have treated me quite well. No, they aren't as good as North, Quantum, Ullman, but I have tested them pretty hard and feel for the price they are a good value. If you are crossing the Atlantic, or racing then maybe spend triple on Quantum. If you are replacing halyards, you might want to check your clutches at the same time. I just installed the new Garhauer 14-11S ones under the dodger and am happy (I attempted to clean and rebuild the very old spinlock XT but they were done). Very exciting to get to pick all new stuff for your new boat!