Fresh water pump failure.

[Brad Young]

We were sailing from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas Mexico.
About 100 miles from Cabo our fresh water pump failed. Bearing went out.

1) Bob on another boat came up with an idea to rerout the hoses of the fresh water pump to the
Raw water, therefore running salt water on the fresh water side.
2) it work great. Engine temperature ran between 140° And 160°
3) running engine without a belt felt very weird. Had to disconnect the alternator. Glad we had solar panels
And a Honda generator to keep the batteries up.
4) salt water wept out of the fresh water pump. Every time we stop I rinsed the engine with fresh water.
Still shows some signs of rust and scaling
5) I have been doing this for 5 days.
6) we are now in La Paz and the new water pump is being delivered tomorrow
7) Going to run fresh water through engine, then add anti freeze

Any thoughts on anything I should do?

Thanks
Brad

[Noah]

WOW. A workaround to ponder. I am not a "mechanic" so I don't know the longterm impacts, or if there are any. I am sure you will get lots of feedback here. Questions: why didn't you just sail the remaining 100  miles? And what was your calculation to make the trip South without a spare pump?

[mark_53]

I think you should be okay if you flush with fresh water several times.  Many of us have had heat exchanger failures that resulted in sea water entering the fresh water system. Probably for several days before discovering.

[Ron Hill]

Brad : That is the Goofiest fix that I have ever heard of!!!

Brad I just didn't understand because the fresh water pump to me is the potable water pump. 
The engine driven pump 50% water 50% prestone is the internal engine pump.  The outside water pump/raw water/sea water for cooling the HX internal water system is the Oberdoffer/Sherwood/Johnson made pump.

Sorry for my confusion.

When I had an engine problem, my buddy that I was traveling with just took a line and towed me for 30 miles!!

A few thoughts

[Noah]

Ron- I have no idea what you are talking about, in your first paragraph about foot pump...seems like you are discussing two unrelated issues?   I believe Brad never touched the potable water system, and that he was talking about the fresh water pump on the engine failing, bypassing by removing belt and rerouting saltwater through freshwater HX cooling loop.

[KWKloeber]

brad,

You may not know that the earliest Universals (and the Atomic 4) were 100% sea water cooled!  Owners later retro fitted the A4 to be fresh water cooled.  You came full circle.

Dump a can of water pump sealer in it and call it good.  LOL!   

I hope you didn't have to buy a "Universal" pump and found a Kubota - BIG price difference!!

The coolant side should of course be 50-50 with distilled water if you can get it.
I would also pull and inspect the Hx and flush it well.


I've posted before that I carry my 12v impeller pump (oil change, tranny fluid change, wash down pump, and emergency sea water cooling pump, diesel transfer pump, bilge pump, diesel lift pump, etc etc.)  It's saved my tail more than once.
It could have kept both the sea water (thru the muffler) and engine coolant sides operating. I really strongly urge everyone to consider keeping one aboard.

Good luck with the switch out.

Ken

[Noah]

Ken- what model 12v "all purpose" fluid pump do you recommend? And how would you hook it up/route it if you were in Brad's situation? Time to teach!

[KWKloeber]

Noah!!!  You haven't been paying attention in class.

This post, et. seq.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9554.msg72039.html#msg72039

I've run my Teel pump for 20+ years (original impeller.)  I believe it's the identical Little Giant pony pump that, in the '90s, Grainger sold under it's own Teel-branded pump. 

The two flow schematics are: (see attachment also)

sea water (all 5/8"):
thru hull >sea water pump >Hx 5/8 sea water in >Hx 5/8 sea water out >vented loop >exh riser wye >muffler

engine coolant loop:
engine block>t'stat housing>exh manifold in>exh man 7/8 out>Hx 7/8 in>Hx 7/8 out>1" coolant pump in>engine block

The second pump would take the place of the coolant pump, placed between the Hx 7/8" coolant out and coolant pump 1" in.  Instead of the sea water pump continually supplying water. 

HOWEVER, forensically thinking about this (again), I'm sure they had the sea water discharging thru the muffler (cooling the exhaust)  Otherwise they'd have a bilge full of hot sea water.  Their way was probably the better way because with a 2nd pump occasionally the water level would need to be topped off (I guess it's success would depend on how much weeping occurred.)   Also, of course topping off the batteries as the 12v pump runs.

There's a few different ways where to inject the sea water and take the hot discharge to the muffler.  Either leaving the Hx in the circuit or bypassing it.  The easiest way depends on what hoses and hopefully some size adapters Brad had aboard.

Interesting dilemma if one had no extras.  if I had to do it with only what's on the engine I THINK, I'd

1) Cut the 7/8 hose that runs from the Hx coolant OUT barb to the coolant pump IN.
2) Run the coolant pump IN part of the cut hose to the sea water pump OUT barb (5/8").
3) Run the Hx OUT part of the cut hose to the Hx sea water IN barb (5/8"). 
And, clamp'emdownastightasyoucan
That would run the hot water thru the Hx, to the exhaust riser wye to the muffler.

Hopefully there's enough hose length to do that.  Otherwise need to adapt 5/8" hoses to 7/8" barbs or hoses.

I guess the takeaway is, carry some extra 5/8" and/or 7/8" hose and some 5/8" to 7/8" (more likely find 3/4") adapters.

If you run seawater you need to take the aluminum water heater out of the loop, otherwise it will get eaten up.  ie, remove the 3/8" hoses from the pump/thermostat housing and insert a short bypass hose (how the engines actually arrived from Japan.) 

ken

[Jim Hardesty]

You may not know that the earliest Universals (and the Atomic 4) were 100% sea water cooled!

My previous boat a 30 foot 1979 S2 had a Yanmar 15hp that was 100% sea water cooled.  Many days it run all day long at full rpm.  Ran terrific and is still going strong. There was somewhat of an owners forum and none had problems with corrosion.  FWIW it was very loud and rough, think rock crushing.  I was always happy when the sails went up.

Jim

[Brad Young]

WOW. A workaround to ponder. I am not a "mechanic" so I don't know the longterm impacts, or if there are any. I am sure you will get lots of feedback here. Questions: why didn't you just sail the remaining 100  miles? And what was your calculation to make the trip South without a spare pump?

I think my calculation was a mis-calculation. Should of had one.. talked myself out of it.
Sailing? Had crew to get off boat in Cabo.

[Brad Young]

You may not know that the earliest Universals (and the Atomic 4) were 100% sea water cooled!  Owners later retro fitted the A4 to be fresh water cooled.  You came full circle.

Does anyone if they did anything special to the motor to Make it salt water compatible.

I paid $340 for the pump that included an agent to ship it to me in La Paz. A bit of a hit but considering my situation I was more than glad to pay.

[mark_53]

We were sailing from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas Mexico.
About 100 miles from Cabo our fresh water pump failed. Bearing went out.

1) Bob on another boat came up with an idea to rerout the hoses of the fresh water pump to the
Raw water, therefore running salt water on the fresh water side.
2) it work great. Engine temperature ran between 140° And 160°

Can you describe exactly how you did that?  Did you use any extra components not already in place?  May come in handy some day for others without a spare fresh water pump.

[Noah]

Brad—were you sailing with the Baja Ha Ha fleet? Aside from the engine "hiccup", how was the trip? And where are you going after La Paz?

[Brad Young]

What we did
1) disconnected water heater
2) connected raw water oout ---> top input of fresh water pump
3) connected lower thermostat hose ---> heat exchanger (added about a foot of hose)
4) ran low rpm 2400
Seem to do ok. Temp ran between 140 --- 170

[Brad Young]

We are not sure where to after La Paz.. going to keep the boat in Mexico for a few years.