Rules Of The Road Question

[Noah]

Yeah probably my bad assuming the tug with barge was restricted. If he was not displaying proper restricted day shapes or lights, then it's a typical power vs sail inland rule situation. Bottomline is; both will share blame in any collision—no matter who had "rights."

[KWKloeber]

Inland rules apply inside the Long Beach breakwater. Paraphrase: when within 1/2 mile of each other, if have not reached an agreement of intent via radio you and he must use appropriate sound signals via horn/ship's whistle to indicate maneuver/passing intentions.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule34

Noah are you referring to these?
(a) When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing [not overtaking] at a distance within half a mile of each other, each vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules:.....
and
A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head-on, crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to sound the whistle signals

Inland 34(a) (communication via horn, light, or VHF within 1/2 mile) doesn't apply to (1) sailboats nor (2) overtaking situations. 
I'm not saying it isn't a good idea upon overtaking or seeing you're being overtaken -- a VHF shout is courteous but it isn't required.  And there's no horn signal to cover it.

Also 34 doesn't REQUIRE one to use VHF.  It REQUIRES one to use SIGNALS (unless you have used VHF.) A huge difference there.

At least that's how I read it.

ken

[KWKloeber]

Yeah probably my bad assuming the tug with barge was restricted.

Even if she was displaying the day shape, restricted maneuverability doesn't apply here. 
The tug was (1)OVERTAKING a (2)SAILBOAT.  1 + 2 = two strikes.

As far as I understand, there's no exception to the overtaking rule even if one has restricted maneuverability.  Dissenting opinions welcome!
(a meeting or X-ing situation would be a different story.)

The sailboat "should" stand on until the tug avoided her and passed, and there's no need to signal the tug (unless 5 blasts if confused by the tug's intentions.) 
The tug was not required to signal the sailboat (unless confused by the sailboat's intentions.) 

In retrospect this is EXACTLY a situation why the rules are what they are.  If the sailboat did not stand on (tacked early) then it could confuse the tug (will s/he tack back before we meet? Does s/he even see me? Should I sound 5 blasts? etc.)  The tug followed the rules precisely and Mark (unknowingly) did also (did not tack across the tug,) but gybed away when he assessed a potential collision risk since the give-way vessel did not avoid him (in his opinion at the time.)

ken

[Noah]

It's been many years since I operated big ships but when I did I was usually towing up to two miles of submereged seismic cable. Had plenty of "dicey encounters" with vessels of all types as well as oil platforms (that refused to get out of my way) LOL! Once off the coast of CA, I even won a battle with the  aircraft carrier USS Ranger, who was landing and taking off aircraft steaming my way at 25+ knots and squawking at me to giveway. We were on a converging course. To their chagrin, after a lot of VHF negotiation, the fact that I was towing a 2-mile cable and had to maintain a precise 2-degree (+/-) survey line course was enough to convince their captain to break off aircraft operations and alter course. Sorry taxpayers. Nowadays, I just try to avoid everyone!

[Braxton]

As far as I understand, there's no exception to the overtaking rule even if one has restricted maneuverability.  Dissenting opinions welcome!
(a meeting or X-ing situation would be a different story.)

[/quote]

I always thought that a vessel that was operating with a TSS was exempt from the overtaking rule.   Now that I am actually looking for documentation to back me up though I am finding contradictory information.   For example:

About TSSs:

"(a) This Rule applies to traffic-separation schemes adopted by the Organization, and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other rule."

Seems to be contradicted by:
"The second important point is found in paragraph (j), which clearly states that all craft under 20 metres (or 66 feet in length) must not impede power driven vessels following a traffic lane"

Both quotes are from:.  http://shipofficer.com/so/rule-of-the-road-explained/

On a only slightly related note:.  On Puget Sound I have never heard a ship or tug call out to a pleasure craft on the radio, they do however feel free to use five blasts of their horn quite liberally.    I have luckily never been on the receiving end of that warning.    This contrasts with my experience on the Chesapeake where I have heard radio calls to pleasure craft several times and have unfortunately been on the receiving end of a very terse radio call once.   I don't know if I have ever heard horn signals directed at pleasure craft on the Chesapeake.

[KWKloeber]

Braxton

You may have missed that, in the first post, I said that everything I was about to state was predicated upon it not occurring in a TSS or narrow channel, etc.  If so then bets were off.  That caveat aside, still Rule 13 does seem to be very definitive (I haven't analyzed all possible situations, but.....)

RULE 13 Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding [despite] anything contained in [rule 8 thru 14], ANY VESSEL overtaking ANY OTHER shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. [emphasis added]

So, even a Navy destroyer inside a TSS, towing a carrier while aircraft are landing on it, "must" give way if overtaking a canoe.  Or theoretically at least.  I wouldn't test that one.

kk

[britinusa]

He's close enough to my port side that I'm not certain I have enough room to tack (turning to port, towards the barge), so quickly jibe to a starboard tack

From my understanding of the position of the two vessels, she's was somewhere off your port beam/quarter at the time you realized the situation but was she ahead of your beam?

Any chance you can provide your Lat & Long at the time so that I can review the chart.

Paul

[Paulus]

Maybe my fellow sailors you should be asking the guestion: Would I rather be right or would I rather be sailing??
Paul

[britinusa]

Maybe my fellow sailors you should be asking the guestion: Would I rather be right or would I rather be sailing??
Paul

I really enjoy these discussions, and it crosses my mind that we spend perhaps several couch hours figuring out the scenario that in real time has a very short span.

Quick! What should I do? - Get out of the way.

If only it were that easy.

Paul

[Mark Sutherland]

He's close enough to my port side that I'm not certain I have enough room to tack (turning to port, towards the barge), so quickly jibe to a starboard tack

From my understanding of the position of the two vessels, she's was somewhere off your port beam/quarter at the time you realized the situation but was she ahead of your beam?

Any chance you can provide your Lat & Long at the time so that I can review the chart.

Paul

She was off my port quarter when I first noticed her, but was abeam within about 5-10 seconds.  I'll see if I can obtain the coordinates, but we weren't in a narrow channel. 

[Mark Sutherland]

Maybe my fellow sailors you should be asking the guestion: Would I rather be right or would I rather be sailing??
Paul

I'm with you Paulus, I wasn't looking to be right (though I believe I was the stand on vessel), I was looking for some courtesy.  I am always happy to give way to a working vessel.  The tug-barge in this case was taking a course across my bow, and while I suspect he knew we weren't going to collide, I didn't have the several minutes to make that calculation, as he did, and in the few seconds I had, it felt way too close for comfort, so I immediately gybed away (to starboard), with no preparation, which is my least favorite maneuver.  To say the least, I was really peeved.

[KWKloeber]

He's close enough to my port side that I'm not certain I have enough room to tack (turning to port, towards the barge), so quickly jibe to a starboard tack

From my understanding of the position of the two vessels, she's was somewhere off your port beam/quarter at the time you realized the situation but was she ahead of your beam?

Any chance you can provide your Lat & Long at the time so that I can review the chart.

Paul

Paul I THINK I know where you are headed, but once there is an overtaking vessel, she is remains the burdened vessel.

By regs, no subsequent maneuver by either vessel can turn it into a crossing situation (if that's where you were headed.)  WHEN Mark saw the tug is moot, it's when the overtaking condition developed (presumably when the tug saw Mark visually or on radar.) 

("Overtaking" occurs if the vessel is coming up between 4:30 and 7:30 o'clock.)

ken

[KWKloeber]

Maybe my fellow sailors you should be asking the guestion: Would I rather be right or would I rather be sailing??
Paul

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but for me reviewing situations and regs helps me stay alive so I CAN continue to stay ON vs. UNDER the water.

The point is, in that overtaking condition Mark MUST maintain course -- which (although inadvertently) he did do -- unless forced to change.  That's why it's not "right of way", it's a "STAND-ON" vessel, it has a meaning and it can save lives.

I've done a few REALLY stooopid maneuvers (and lived to tell even though I didn't deserve to) but afterward learned (even though I thought it was proper at the time) what I did wrong and WHY.  In the forensics no one is trying to slam Mark because we have all been in tight binds, sometimes due to our action and many times due to others.  But knowing the rules may avoid maybe ONE more of those happening and maybe save ONE life. 

Mark asked the question because he wants to call out the Cap's actions to the CG.  But (it appears from available info that) Mark was initially wrong ("proper watch") but did everything correctly from there on, and the tug did things 100% right from the get-go.  So, complaining to the CG will likely get nowhere because the tug Cap (apparently) isn't doing anything wrong.  What's the complaint, "He's doing everything required but isn't being courteous to me"? I want to be a fly on the CG wall to see the eye rolls when THAT call comes across. 

Additionally though, had Mark seen the tug and (thinking it the proper maneuver) tacked across her, he would have been technically wrong although with probably no worse result.  But the tug operator could get peeved at him for not calling out that he's changing course (instead of standing on.)  That would perpetuate the line that "These recreational rag baggers think they own the water and don't know the rules" (which, if that had occurred, would seem correct.)  If to no one else, analyzing the situation was valuable to ME because it revealed that initial assumptions were incorrect:  The tug did not have the "right of way"; the preferred tack to port would have been improper; the tug has no requirement to communicate; there was no basis in rules to be peeved at the tug Cap; a call to the CG would make Mark look foolish; if anyone should be peeved it would be the tug Cap if s/he realized s/he wasn't seen overtaking.  I think the lesson is worth the time to discuss it, but that's JTSO.

I would probably handle an encounter by VHF, hoping it would end up something like this:

Hey Cap, I see you coming up on me and the last few times I hadn't called you.  I know that you are the burdened vessel, but if you give me a VHF shout I'd be happy to bear off and give you room to pass.

No problem, I have you sighted and we have room on your port side so long as you maintain course.

Roger Cap. I will maintain course. I know you aren't required to, but it would really help out all of us if you give a Securite' shout out on 16 [or local calling channel if different] so we know when you are steaming through. Have a g'day.

If the Cap isn't a total A-hole he might do it.  Especially if s/he got an occasional "thank you Cap, everyone appreciates your time taken to do that."

off soapbox
JTSO. 
Others' mileage may vary, etc.
ken

[britinusa]

Paul I THINK I know where you are headed, but once there is an overtaking vessel, she is remains the burdened vessel.

By regs, no subsequent maneuver by either vessel can turn it into a crossing situation (if that's where you were headed.)  WHEN Mark saw the tug is moot, it's when the overtaking condition developed (presumably when the tug saw Mark visually or on radar.) 

("Overtaking" occurs if the vessel is coming up between 4:30 and 7:30 o'clock.)

ken

Ken, you read correctly between my lines.

The, evolved, description of the event appears to indicate that the vessel (tug) was overtaking.

If the vessel (tug) was in view of the stern light he would be overtaking, but if it was in view of the sidelights he would be crossing. Correct?

In either case, the vessel was on the Port side of the sailboat and thus the burdened vessel.




My mnemonic for the pecking order is: Nice Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some
Not Under Command
Constricted by Draft
Fishing Vessel (not trolling)
Sailing Vessel
Power Vessel
Sea Plane (or WIG)

From my study book:

The  status a vessel claims is indicated by the lights or shapes she displays. Note that a fishing vessel not displaying either fishing or trawling lights or shapes, a sailing vessel using its engine, and a tug not displaying the lights or shapes for a vessel restricted in ability to  maneuver—are all simply power - driven vessel

And

Regardless of any other rule, an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way.

So an 'Overtaking' vessel would be at the bottom of the pecking order.

Paul

[KWKloeber]

Paul I THINK I know where you are headed, but once there is an overtaking vessel, she is remains the burdened vessel.

By regs, no subsequent maneuver by either vessel can turn it into a crossing situation (if that's where you were headed.)  WHEN Mark saw the tug is moot, it's when the overtaking condition developed (presumably when the tug saw Mark visually or on radar.) 

("Overtaking" occurs if the vessel is coming up between 4:30 and 7:30 o'clock.)
ken

If the vessel (tug) was in view of the stern light he would be overtaking, but if it was in view of the sidelights he would be crossing. Correct?

In either case, the vessel was on the Port side of the sailboat and thus the burdened vessel.

My mnemonic for the pecking order is: Nice Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some
Not Under Command
Constricted by Draft
Fishing Vessel (not trolling)
Sailing Vessel
Power Vessel
Sea Plane (or WIG)

From my study book:

The  status a vessel claims is indicated by the lights or shapes she displays. Note that a fishing vessel not displaying either fishing or trawling lights or shapes, a sailing vessel using its engine, and a tug not displaying the lights or shapes for a vessel restricted in ability to  maneuver—are all simply power - driven vessel

And

Regardless of any other rule, an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way.

So an 'Overtaking' vessel would be at the bottom of the pecking order.

Paul

Paul,

Yes overtaking is defined as being aft of 22-1/2 deg of abeam, so to the approaching vessel that corresponds to the 112 deg visibility of the sidelights  (strange that "they" made that easy for us, common sense wise.)

Or if the boat ahead and trying to determine pecking, I was incorrect: ("Overtaking"... is coming up between 4:30 and 7:30 o'clock.)  MEA CULPA -- That would be 45 deg abaft of beam, and I knew that!! (Trigonometry wasn't my strong point, I hated it.) 
Correctly, "Being overtaken" would a vessel approaching within the cone between 3:45 o'clock and 8:15 o'clock (67-1/2 deg either side of directly aft.) 

On your pecking, consider putting "Overtaken vessel" as #1 (you're naming the stand-ons.) Orvis reels? Okuma reels? Offshore angler reels? Outstanding reels?  :-)

I've seen those peckings before, but I'm not sure how it mirrors the regs and which Rules it comes.  Not saying I disagree, just that I haven't correlated the two. 

From your study guide can you help me out with which Rule(s) establish that order?

ken