wood plank supporting keel bolts in any 1988 C34s?

[Tad.beagley]

I'm joining my surveyor tomorrow for a pre-purchase on a 1988 Catalina  wing keel. It was finally hauled out for the survey, and the pic reviled the dreaded Catalina smile. I have read from several sources that one of the main issues with this crack is water getting to the wood plank and rotting it compromising the structure. I have also read in many places that the wood plank issue is a "pre-1988" issue. Hoping to get some clarification on two things:

1. are there any 1988 models that have the wood plank supporting the keel bolts, and if so is there any easy way to tell?
2. if there is not a wood plank, is there some other issue from this crack that would be a deal breaker?

Thanks for all the great info!

[Noah]

A couple of comments: IMO, the "Dreaded Catalina Smile" is an inflammatory scary phrase that needs to be banished from our lexicon. Many fiberglass boats with bolt-on ballast keels, from multiple manufacturers, exhibit cracking along the keel joint during their lifetimes. Rarely is it to be "dreaded". Generally it can be fixed by re-torquing the keel bolts and new faring compound. In cases with early, pre-1988 C34s (and some mid-1988 boats I have heard reported), had wood keel stubs between the keel and the lead. Water instrusion through the crack and keelbolts caused the wood to rot. It is a "chicken or the egg" situation here as to which came first, the cracking or bolt leaks. But same result; and the keel has to be dropped and the bad wood removed.

As your boat is a 1988 this MAY be the case, that it has a wood keel stub, as the 1988 cut-off date is apparently somewhat fuzzy. An unpleasant and time consuming job, but many have done it and there are good write-ups here on the board.

[KWKloeber]

Tad

The CTY factory drawing on the keel stub rework notes "Typical pre 1988" models.  Taking that strictly, it "wood" be boats that left the factory on/before July 31, 1987.  August 1 began the "88" model year.  Again, that's taking the document strictly and literally.   A call to CTY should confirm your specific hull #.

I had the smile.  First, in FULL DISCLOSURE, it's a 30 and a fin, not a wing -- but I think the 30 and 34 keel joints are pretty much located between the lead and the fiberglass keel buss (admittedly not exactly the identical precise location below WL, and the 34 joint is longer than the 30,) they both have bolts and washers and nuts, and I think both can experience water in the bilge.  I that covers the similarities/differences that I know of (sorry Stu, couldn't help that comparison.) 

The issue, as I understand it from a handful of authoritative sources -- it's water migrating down the bolts' threads that (at least initially) attacks the wood plank.  You can fix that WITH the keel in place.   See the factory drawing on the Tech Wiki. 

I found the wood chips wet, but not rotted when I drilled into it with my 1/4" electrician's bit.

On to the other issue... the smile/joint.
 
I thought I had "just a smile" -- I presumed due to (per CTY factory "smile" drawing) mis blocking of the hull in the cradle.  Not a big deal to grind out and fix it.  My initial crack was about a foot long, and I noticed it only because in the spring I saw water leaking down the keel from it. 

But when I investigated, the joint was more than just a smile, it had deteriorated significantly (both distance/amount, and the disintegration of the joint material.)   Water attacked nearly 1/3 of the joint, mostly from (surprisingly) the trailing edge of the joint - less from the leading edge.  Winter freeze/thaw cycles didn't help my keel joint one bit.

I gathered info and recommendations from many sources (this was the early 90s, so most was using a telephonic device that did not have a camera attached to it (i.e., a desk phone!!)  Gougeon Brothers was the most helpful, CTY not so much (Frank's take on it [paraphrased,] "Your boat's over 10 years old.  If you want a perfect boat buy a new one.) I believe that this was pre CTY factory repair drawing, but not 100% sure -- at least I had not seen the drawing and Frank didn't offer it up or offer ANY suggestions/procedure/help how to fix it. 

So, because of how much it appeared had "rotted," I decided to rebed the entire joint and attacked it.  Understand that polyester (i.e., fiberglass) is hydrophilic (i.e., water attacks it when it gets to the fibers.) If we didn't have gelcoat, over a LONG time we eventually wouldn't have a hull left.  It's what happens with hull blisters (on a much smaller scale.)  The joint was bedded with a fiberglass paste, i.e.; buttered up, the surfaces mated/bolted up, cleaned up, and finally faired smooth.  Fiberglass was the choice of materials back then -- not unusual, but not a good choice.  I have no problem with that.  I do have a problem with a professional embedding wood, and not oak or something else substantial, into the keel buss.  Just a very very poor decision and, plainspeak, dumb.

That year so was completely redoing my bottom (ground down, barrier coat, VC 17) -- I had built a scaffold that totally supported the bow so I could remove the forward cradle pads that interfered with that work.  I figured what was another week or so's work on the joint? HA

It was a BEAR getting out the good joint material, but a cinch for the punky (consistency kinda like wet gypsum (drywall.)  Absolutely no structure to it.  To remove the good stuff, I had to drill thru it (16" electrician's bit) every inch, and cut between the holes with a a sawzall w/a carbide grit blade. I went thru 10 blades!!

After I dropped the keel (more precisely, raised the hull) I cleaned up both joint surfaces, and popped her back together, bedding (per Gudgeon recommendation) w/ 5200.  I hope I'm never sorry about that!



Also per recommendation, I stiffened up my bilge -- I used epoxy resin to float in a flat /level surface, and put a 1/8" s/s plate on top before the keel bolt washers/nuts (actually two plates, split fore/aft.)  There's flex/movement in our hull shape (between keel/keel buss also) and it was recommended to help stiffen that up.  With the torque on the nuts, the washers can actually crush the fiberglass bilge (at least that was also cautioned) so I went the extra step w/ the plates to spread the load.

All that said, if you have a "small"  shallow smile, there's no reason to do all that  But also be cautioned that (as I found) what's on the surface isn't necessarily indicative of what's behind it.

good luck w the survey
ken

[Ron Hill]

Tad ; We all pretty much with ken's assessment.  The Catalina smile is more cosmetic than a structural problem.  With the wing keel it super important to get the weight of the boat (in storage) on the nose of the wing - or you'll get that split between the keel and the hull stub.  usually not a problem if the boat is stored in its shipping cradle.

Another place beside the keel bolts that you can get water migration problems is the PVC drain pipe under the mast sole that goes from the 1st bilge compartment under/thru the mast step buildup  - if the boat is in a cold climate, the bilge fills with water and it freezes!  That PVC pipe will split.

A few thoughts

[Stu Jackson]

Rebedding a Keel Stub 101  The Catalina Smile with Pictures

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

[Tad.beagley]

Thanks again! Heading down there at 3:00 am EST, I'm sure we will be talking soon!

[anon]

I followed the link and discovered a second link to the keel repair article for the Stella Blue. What an awesome blog and just great reading.
Man, I wish that guy had a '34. Nevertheless, I think there might be a lot of general sailboat learning there.
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/index.htm

There was also a great ditty about sailing dedicated to W? Bryant's father:

Balance and Symmetry
I love to sail because it is a lot like life...
There are things you can control, and things you can't control.
You can control the shape of your sails, you can control your heading...
you can control a lot of things.
You can't control the wind. You can't control the tide...
you can't control a lot of things.
The trick is to achieve balance and symmetry
by understanding what you can't control
and adjusting what you can to stay your course.

Balance.
For that magic time the boat sails itself
and you get where you want to go without fighting, without trouble...
you sit back and eat a sandwich and drink a beer and
enjoy the day!
I love to sail because it is a lot like life...

[KWKloeber]

Sophie

That's a great blog/site.  I see the yard also rebed the keel with 5200.  Now I don't feel quite so anxious about that decision (it's too late anyway!)

ken

[DaveBMusik]

1. are there any 1988 models that have the wood plank supporting the keel bolts, and if so is there any easy way to tell?

Thanks for all the great info!

The length of the keel bolt may be the answer. Mine has the wood and I can use a regular deep socket to tighten my keel bolts. I have heard others talk about welding two sockets to gether in order to get enough depth.