Water in keel joint

[KWKloeber]

Dave,

You're mixing two separate (but related) issues.  A deteriorated bedding (joint) is separate from the wood (wet or
potentially rotted) in the keel stub (or keel buss.)  That's why there's TWO different CTY "fixes" addressing them.

You can't fix the wood issue, by dropping the keel -- nor fix the joint issue by removing the wood from inside. 

A deteriorated joint typically resulted from water spiraling down the bolt thread (and attacking both the wood plank above (in) the keel buss along the way to attacking the polyester joint (keel bedding between the buss and lead.)

Clear as mud?

FWIW, the C30 was done with both hardwood and plywood.

-kk

[KWKloeber]

see the recent related post for the fixes.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9219.msg67544.html#msg67544

-kk

[Whiskymac]

I too am following this thread with interest.
I became owner of an '88  (hull 711) in the spring and during inspection noticed a very small (literally a few drops) weep of some rust colored water coming the forward port side of the keel in about the right area to be the very early signs of a smile. There is barely any crack visible.
I do have a permanently wet bilge but have yet to determine the source. I'm in fresh water so the taste test doesn't apply.
My surveyor checked with some people and advised that it could be fixed with some grinding out, glass and fairing and a $1000 price adjustment was made.
I have read all I can find on the subject and am trying to determine a course of action.
My question is, does anybody know the exact hull number when CY stopped using wood in the keel? I suppose I could call CY but just wondered whether anyone might have the answer to hand.
Thanks in advance,
Jeremy.

[Noah]

Hmm? Seems like not very much fiberglas there between the lead and the bottom of the boat, if that's correct. And what a PIA to dig the wood out from the inside! That doesn't sound right? Maybe I am missing something? Good luck on your exploration. Hope you find dry wood.

[KWKloeber]

Noah,

When I did the C30, IIRC it was like 3/4 - 1" (from poking around the bolt holes -- not a precise measurement since I didn't remove the plank.  The diagrams show the relative (although not precise) thicknesses on the hull and buss.

The wood is there to, as well as to stiffen, help spread the load along/across the entire buss.  Which goes to my point that it's 'structural' to whatever extent -- not just rice crispies (or wheat chex) as a space holder.  :-)

-k

Hmm? Seems like not very much fiberglas there between the lead and the bottom of the boat, if that's correct. And what a PIA to dig the wood out from the inside! That doesn't sound right? Maybe I am missing something? Good luck on your exploration. Hope you find dry wood.

[DaveBMusik]

Dave,

You're mixing two separate (but related) issues.  A deteriorated bedding (joint) is separate from the wood (wet or
potentially rotted) in the keel stub (or keel buss.)  That's why there's TWO different CTY "fixes" addressing them.

You can't fix the wood issue, by dropping the keel -- nor fix the joint issue by removing the wood from
A deteriorated joint typically resulted from water spiraling down the bolt thread (and attacking both the wood plank above (in) the keel buss along the way to attacking the polyester joint (keel bedding between the buss and lead.)

Clear as mud?

FWIW, the C30 was done with both hardwood and plywood.

-kk

Thanks, it is slowly becoming clearer😀

[tgsail1]

I think the below is a different situation -- which is one section of fglass that's being compressed at the top surface, not two pieces that's being drawn together, with potential mush in between them?  Or maybe I'm looking at it askew?

-k

They are really the same thing. In the case I described, the bottom bolt load is spread out by the keel more or less uniformly across the stub walls and bottom, so the bottom doesn't flex much. The point load on the top skin (from the nuts and washers) will pull it towards the bottom skin (drawing them together as you put it). If there was no keel and just a bolt squeezing the two skins together, your specific scenario would play out. From a calculation point of view it hardly matters, if the core is rotten and the top skin is a half inch or less, it will flex a lot.

[KWKloeber]

Ok, I was thinking the movement was due to compression of the glass, not strictly deflection - so yes that wouldn't make a difference if there was mush between two layers.

kk

I think the below is a different situation -- which is one section of fglass that's being compressed at the top surface, not two pieces that's being drawn together, with potential mush in between them?  Or maybe I'm looking at it askew?

-k

They are really the same thing. In the case I described, the bottom bolt load is spread out by the keel more or less uniformly across the stub walls and bottom, so the bottom doesn't flex much. The point load on the top skin (from the nuts and washers) will pull it towards the bottom skin (drawing them together as you put it). If there was no keel and just a bolt squeezing the two skins together, your specific scenario would play out. From a calculation point of view it hardly matters, if the core is rotten and the top skin is a half inch or less, it will flex a lot.

[Indian Falls]

Keel joint repair minus the wood in the bilge problem.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

I left my mast stepped because I did not disengage the keel stub bolts from the hull all the way.
No sense making more work if you can get it cleaned out and prepped in the 2 1/2'' gap.

[Stu Jackson]

Keel joint repair minus the wood in the bilge problem.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

And it is the SAME ONE included in the 101 topics.  I included it there because it was such a thorough, informative, helpful, well documented and well photographed post.

Rebedding a Keel Stub 101  The Catalina Smile with Pictures

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

Thanks again, Dan.

[DaveBMusik]

Attached are three scans I received from Catalina today. The first is the bilge repair, the second is the updated smile repair using West GFlex and the third is for sealing keel bolts.

Thanks for working through this with me! Although I have looked at the 101 project and other previous posts, I thought that the wood was at the keel joint and didn't realize there was another layer between the hull and bilge.

[Jon W]

I can't seem to open the attachment. Can you reattach it? Thanks.

[DaveBMusik]

Attached are three scans I received from Catalina today. The first is the bilge repair, the second is the updated smile repair using West GFlex and the third is for sealing keel bolts.

Thanks for working through this with me! Although I have looked at the 101 project and other previous posts, I thought that the wood was at the keel joint and didn't realize there was another layer between the hull and bilge.

Unfortunately, the file size is too large and will not load. Feel free to PM or e-mail me (click on my name) and I will send it along.

[Stu Jackson]

Dave, can you send them one at a time on different posts?  Could you print them out and rescan them at lower resolution to make the file sizes smaller?

[KWKloeber]

The keel crack and bolt leak fix PDFs are posted at (at least temporarily)
Tech Wiki > Maintenance > Hull

I'll get the wooden plank fix posted there also.


wondering if it would be helpful to stick all factory issued docs, fixes, etc., in one location
any thoughts on that?

ken