Console buzzer alarm - electrical problem?

[KWKloeber]

- the tab broke off the switch.

I love it when I'm 99.999% correct.   
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache.  Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness.

Still unexplained is the malfunctioning tach, and also the very dim alarm light. But one thing at a time. I'll dig into the wiring schematic a little more to get more familiar. A quick glance at the schematic looks like an open oil switch might possibly cause some interference with the alternator voltage going to the tachometer. I'm not sure because I don't fully understand the alternator symbols in the schematic.

I *think* the light might be getting back fed with low voltage, maybe from the alt field excite.  Just a WAG (0.0009%.)   May be a second problem in there.

I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate -

The switch powers the lift pump, so (in Westerbeke's world) no fuel is delivered to the engine until there's oil pressure (Engine-saving feature,) so the preheat solenoid temporarily powers the lift pump.  In reality *FWIU* (not having a 34,) the tank still feeds the engine w/o the lift pump.  Or there's enuf fuel at the injector pump to get you going.

The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.

One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor.

And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.

THANK YOU Thank You thank you for recognizing that Wb and CTY sweats the details. NOT.

Is there any way you can scan what shows the "other" location and "sender"?

On the schematic, it's implied but not stated that the ignition switch is the preheat, except if you read the manual.  Welcome to the world of crazy catalina and whacky westerbeke.  Wb doesn't sweat details about having the most up-to-date/accurate info in its manuals (some manuals still reference a "radiator" (left over from a kubota tractor manual verbiage.))   There's many many errors that are never corrected.  And Wb doesn't customize its Op Mans (especially things like start procedure) for what it's going into.

The most Wb does, is throw another schematic page in (yippee) and Catalina didn't make changes or issue errata to the manuals to reflect its installs.  One would think someone would have said, "Yes, we'll buy your engine.  IF you provide a manual that reflects the wiring changes you make and remove reference to the panels we don't use."  Not unreasonable.  It shows that there's no one on either end of that transaction who cared.  Hell they don't even provide a schematic of the panel they do install.

The best thing you can do it use that manual to start a bonfire.  It would be more useful. 
The manuals for the "old" engines (-25, -35, -40) ARE NOT the manuals for the B series (-25XPB, -35B, -40B) like yours.  There is NO WAY that a manual should be listed to cover both, say, an XPB and a 35 or 35A and a 35B.   There was no XPB (except a repower) that was EVER installed in a CTY and wired anything like the old engines.  The newest manual for the B series 35, 40, 50 is probably the best there is, but use caution -- there's still errors in it (and the parts manual as well.)

I don't know what Wb is recently doing with manuals -- it shows an April 2016 rev. 0, parts manual for the M-25XPA, which hasn't been out of production since 1996 !!!  So from '94 to '96 they never issued a manual for engines sold, but decided to this year?  It's a farce relying on what you read -- owners have to verify for themselves what's what with their engines.  Shame on Wb.  Oh yeaah, and the engine that's on the cover of the M-25XPA manual, isn't even one, it's an M-40 or M-50.  Wb pulled diagrams from other engines and shows pumps, engine mounts, and other stuff that weren't on the XPA.  All I can figure, is that Wb is trying to make everything generic so that it doesn't need to customize manuals to an engine.

[KWKloeber]

That seems to be an even worse wiring scheme than Catalina has, and bound to lead to problems if people have a weak starter battery.

Understand that was not CTY's or Kb's wiring decision, that was Wb's decision.  The way Wb designed the "marineizing", it can't be started w/o tearing out the preheat, oil switch, and lift pump circuits.  It can be done, but it would have been a major change that CTY would have had to (1) understand what's going on and its ramifications and (2) cared to improve the power plant.

[Breakin Away]

...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache.  Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...

Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.

I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.

Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.

[lucky]

My temp and oil alarm stopped working. Bought a cole hersee duel alarm 4112 from Defender,but no wiring diagram.No help from CH or defender.Request from tech desk will not call back.This from Ch or defender.If any one installed this product would you please post wiring

Al Landry
c34 hull13
Lucky

[KWKloeber]

Al,

Sure I love tech supporting other peoples sales!  LOL
First, on which engine (put that in your profile? 
Original install, or repower, or possibly any PO mod to the engine/panel electrical?

-kk

My temp and oil alarm stopped working. Bought a cole hersee duel alarm 4112 from Defender,but no wiring diagram.No help from CH or defender.Request from tech desk will not call back.This from Ch or defender.If any one installed this product would you please post wiring

Al Landry
c34 hull13
Lucky

[Breakin Away]

...Sure I love tech supporting other peoples sales!  LOL

Ken, please pardon this naive question, but I am still pretty new here. What is it that you actually sell? I think it is important to have full disclosure on this (perhaps in your signature or profile) for a variety of reasons. It's not just about conflicts of interest; in fact, it will help all of us to know we could/should be purchasing certain items or services from you in recognition of the valuable support that you provide here. It would also be helpful for you to let us know what region of the world you are in, especially if you are selling services. Maybe you feel like everyone knows these things already, but there are always newcomers coming in who might not know.

[KWKloeber]

I don't think it's a proper place for that -- I will sometimes PM someone if I think I can help them out or usually word of mouth.
Maybe there could be a "supplier's corner" someplace -- something the assn would have to discuss.
Once an owner "knows me" they know to email me first.  :-)

Thanks
Ken

[lucky]

engine is orginal universal engine has oil sender.May have been aftermarker.I think orginaly it only had oil and.. water light no buzzer. only 2 terminals on ch note says12v dc non ground
Al Landry
1986 c34 hull#13
Lucky
thank you very very much

[KWKloeber]

WHICH Universal engine? M-25, M-25XP? M-25XPA, M-25XPAC, M25-XPB, M-35? M35A, M-35B?

Help me here.

Oil sender? You mean you have a pressure gauge on the panel? 
Or do you mean an oil switch? One or two terminal?

Does your thermostat cap have both a temp sender (for the gauge) AND a temp switch - ie. two wires and two gizmos on the thermostat  cap??

Yep, I'm very familiar with the CH alarm -- good product I sometimes recommend depending on the situation.

engine is orginal universal engine has oil sender.May have been aftermarker.I think orginaly it only had oil and.. water light no buzzer. only 2 terminals on ch note says12v dc non ground
Al Landry
1986 c34 hull#13
Lucky
thank you very very much

[KWKloeber]

...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache.  Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...

Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.

I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.

Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.


Achy Breaky,  sure see spoon below:

Prior post:

Or, the switch terminals might be loose or broken off -- see this and prior posts here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9115.msg66799.html#msg66799

Suggest you install the plug/cover I show on that thread, with dielectric grease on the terms to protect them.  Make SURE the harness is tied so there's NO movement in the wires to the switch.  THIS may be an issue since there's occurrences of broken terminals.  I dissected a B engine harness and found that Westerbeke used stiff UNTINNED SAE wire on its harness, not UL 1426 type III (most flexible) tinned marine wire.
But we'll give Wb another pass for once again non-ABYC-compliant crap when they could just "do it right."

It shows in a search:
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20
Bottom of the page "Oil Pressure Alarm"

The downside is, as far as I know, the terminals and wires are not tinned.  It's an imperfect world.
The upside is you won't break off a tab again.  And if you use some dielectric (SuperLube teflon gel) there's shouldn't be any moisture getting to the terminals anyway.  Not on the cap itself -- might tend to be slippery and vibrate the cap off the switch (unless you zip-tie around the  body) -- just a little inside the female quick disconnect terminals, then it won't ooze out onto the cap.  I'm talking a smidgen here, not a dallop.

PS it doesn't matter which wire goes to which terminal -- it's just an independant on-off switch, no magic.

Caveat - I don't have a 2-wire switch.  But I recommended probably a dozen people get this cover after replacing their broken or failed or corroded up switch -- none did (out of sight out of mind.)  So, I **think** (95.005%) it will fit the B series switch body/terminals.

-ken

[KWKloeber]

As Stu has lamented many a time "use the Google search" on the main page.
Oftentimes, the forum search is not as "good" -- so try both if necessary.

[lucky]

Engine is m25.oil sender on blk one terminal. thermostat has one sending unit for gauge.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky
Lake texoma,tx

[KWKloeber]

Engine is m25.oil sender on blk one terminal. thermostat has one sending unit for gauge.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky
Lake texoma,tx

Al,

Ok on the M-25 panel, in a word, you're screwed.  This is based on my M-25 wiring and my 1984 C30 M-25 panel -- I ass/u/me it's the same on the early C34 -- someone correct me if I'm off base on the early C34 panel alarm.

First, the CH "dual" means light and sound -- NOT dual alarm (such as oil and temp.)

The CH alarm needs a simple ON/OFF switch to trigger it.  Think of it as simply an anchor light, turned on by the panel switch. 
But instead of the panel switch on the hot wire to the light, the hot wire runs to the bulb and the switch is on the ground wire.   The oil switch simply stays closed until there's oil pressure, and completes a circuit from the alarm/light to the engine ground.  SO yes you CAN use the CH for oil pressure because it's just an on/off switch system.

But the TEMP alarm is a different animal -- not activated by a switch -- it's a circuit board that "reads" the resistance in the temp sender (temp gauge) circuit, and alarms when the resistance says the temp is too high.  These boards go bad and there's no longer a replacement.  That's the screwed part.

The workaround is to install a new separate panel switch (temperature switch) and another anchor light (alarm).  A high-temp switch -- goes on the thermostat cap.  A new cap is available ( $$$$) that has a port added for the switch, but many just drill and tap ( 1/8" NPT) the side of their old cap which works just as well (what do you have to loose to try it?)   

I attached a pic of the cap w/ the temp sender (front) AND the temp switch (on the side, 1st pic below).

Some have also simply removed the petcock on the Tstat cap, and used that port (1/8" NPT) for the new temp switch (on the top, second picture below.)

You need a separate wire from the panel to the new temp switch, and you need another CH alarm IF YOU WANT separate alarms for oil and temp.  If you did the voltmeter upgrade, you should have an unused orange wire still running to the panel that you can repurpose. 

If you don't care which sets off the CH alarm, then you just jumper the oil switch wire, to the new temp switch -- and when either switch (oil or temp) connects to the engine ground, your single CH alarm goes on.   But IMHO -- who cares?  You shut down anyway - and the temp gauge will tell you whether it's the temp that's high.

The key is, you can't do all that you want to do, until you install the new temp switch (standard on the M-25XP engines and all since then.)

The Westerbeke temp switch takes a special terminal (a Packard 56 terminal) but that's the easy part of it all.  I've tried to source a different temp switch w/ some standard-type terminal, but haven't found one that's 1/8" NPT.

ken

[lucky]

Ken
Thanks for your help.Only need oil pressure hook up.Seems as I get older things are harder to understand.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky

[KWKloeber]

Only need oil pressure hook up.  Seems as I get older things are harder to understand.
Al Landry

Al,

OK then hook a power source onto one terminal on the CH (from the "I" terminal on the key switch, or power source that feeds your gauges -- something that is hot when the key is on, or whatever source currently feeds the alarm now.)  On the other CH terminal -- put the (light gauge) blue wire that runs down to the oil switch.  It doesn't matter which terminal either wire goes on -- it's a "dumb" light and buzzer is all.   

Check it -- alarm should be ON w/ key on and engine not running (switch closed, completing the circuit to engine ground), OFF as soon as you start and get oil pressure (switch open, breaking the connection to engine ground.

I should have drawn another analogy before -- it's like a car door switch (before computers anyway) -- when you open the door, the switch connects to the body ground, and the dome light goes on.  :-)

If anything else happens, then there's a different issue.

Don't worry -- I'm lucky I still remember this stuff LOL (CRS.).


Be cautious though -- you now have no temp alarm and unless you watch the temp gauge continuously you won't know if you've overheated and about to score a cylinder wall.

Let us know!

Ken