Sam's Dead -- or "Do you have an M-25?"

[KWKloeber]

Those with M-25s NOT XPs)
check out this Practical Sailor article. 




http://www.sailmagazine.com/multihulls/cruising-multihulls/engine-trouble-sams-dead/?utm_source=sail-enewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=textlink&utm_campaign=enewsletter

We with M-25s also have an external oil hose that can fail (well, I used to have one.) If you have an original M-25, there's a rubber/fabric oil hose leading from the oil port on the block (nestled in above the starter motor, below the exhaust manifold) to a machined block (mounted on the Hx bracket) that holds the low-oil-pressure-alarm switch.  The hose can fail from age and engine heat, and cause a mess -- no less an engine failure.  I caught mine because I noticed questionable oil pressure (it was oozing oil and had not completely failed.) There is a second hole in the machined oil block that is tapped 1/8" NPT.

There's no need for this hose, and who knows what quality material Universal used for it (it is not OE Kubota.)  There reason to have the oil switch away from the engine block and doing so introduces one more unnecessary failure point on the M-25s.

The OEM oil switch by the Hx is 1/8"-27 NPT thread (so it's an "American" pressure switch.)  The same thread as on the engine block 1/8"-28 JIS (so it's takes a Japanese/Kubota thread switch -- the same switch that is on the M-25XPs, in the on-the-block location.)  The only downside of that location is its access (see switch visible in attached pic -- looking straight down between the valve cover and exh manifold.) I extended mine out past the exhaust manifold (and also added a sender for a real oil pressure gauge in the cockpit panel.)

Take 10 minutes to check if you have the OE hose (#11), and block and rear-mounted oil switch (#20, #14), and decide whether it's worth taking the chance for that hose to fail or to eliminate it before it does. 


The on-engine-block switch (#28) is p/n 299964 (Westerbeke, $24) or 15841-39010 (Kubota, $18.)




-kk

[scgunner]

    Ken,

      I'm getting ready to do the 100hr service on my 1987 M-25. I found this post interesting so I went down and checked my motor and was unable to find a hose, a machined block, or an oil switch. I'm wondering if this set up is something that came on an earlier version of the M-25. When I got Top Gun the motor had about 50hrs on the clock so I doubt the PO did any modification. Is it possible that later M-25s excluded this setup?
      FYI, if you haven't already you should really change out that water hose and clamp and any other hoses and clamps of the same generation.

[KWKloeber]

    Ken,

      I'm getting ready to do the 100hr service on my 1987 M-25. I found this post interesting so I went down and checked my motor and was unable to find a hose, a machined block, or an oil switch. I'm wondering if this set up is something that came on an earlier version of the M-25. When I got Top Gun the motor had about 50hrs on the clock so I doubt the PO did any modification. Is it possible that later M-25s excluded this setup?
      FYI, if you haven't already you should really change out that water hose and clamp and any other hoses and clamps of the same generation.

1) Yah, at some point Universal did away with the oil switch block.  After '84 and before '87 it seems.  Stu has said that NO C-34 M-25s have the oil block -- can't attest to or question that as I have no personal data.  I have asked Westerbeke when Universal changed it, and they have no records on that.

2) A correction on the write up below.  The OEM oil switch on that oil block was JIS thread, apparently Universal just moved the switch from the engine block to the oil block. There was a second hole tapped NPT, either for an oil pressure gauge sender or to replace the Japanese switch with an "American" switch.

3)  I agree, but it ain't my water hose.  :-)
It's an XP, long ago removed, reworked, revamped, updated, paint touched up, re-water-hosed, and water-cooled riser exhausted.   :-)

Ken

[scgunner]

     Ken,

       Thanks for the follow up, I know this is an old thread but anytime the subject of catastrophic engine failure comes up I'm always interested in looking into it. Actually I'm a little surprised that this thread generated so little interest.

[Stu Jackson]

     >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually I'm a little surprised that this thread generated so little interest.

Could be because it doesn't apply to C34s.  The port side of our engines is literally inaccessible.  Whether or not this contributed to the removal of those fittings is impossible to know.  But if there were fittings like that on the port side of the early engines with resultant catastrophic failures, you betcha we would have heard about it long before now.  You're new here, but we've been "at it" since 1987.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : Most of the 1987 C34 production had the M25XP engines installed. 
I believe that only the 1st year 1986 C34 production had the straight M25 engine installed.

That may well be why you can't find that problem oil hose on the M25 engine.

A thought

[KWKloeber]

     Ken,

       Thanks for the follow up, I know this is an old thread but anytime the subject of catastrophic engine failure comes up I'm always interested in looking into it. Actually I'm a little surprised that this thread generated so little interest.

Kevin

I theorize that Universal did away w/ the hose/remote oil block to save money, not due to problems having developed that early in the engine history.  Probably pre C-34.

It's unnecessary on the C-30 (has good access to the port side), and the switch is accessible on the C-34.  It could be that Universal customized certain engines to certain boat manufacturers, and some needed the remote block and some didn't.  As I said it's not needed on the C-30 but, in the boat building heyday, it's possible that Catalina may have used some engines with the remote block, while other engines it installed may not have had it -- just a possibility.  Such oddities occurred with the different sea water pumps used on the same vintage M-25 and Universal having to manufacture an adapter, (which mine had) p/n 298477 and 298478 to use the Oberdorfer N202M-07/03 pumps.  It's an oddity that even Depco Pump had no idea existed and is not shown in the M-25 parts list -- I have no clue how many M-25s had that adapter.

Also, I believe that Universal offered an engine panel that has a pressure gauge.  So, another possibility is that the remote block was necessary to install a pressure sender.  Since then, there is a different method used to provide a port for a pressure sender.

ken

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After '84 and before '87 it seems.  Stu has said that NO C-34 M-25s have the oil block -- can't attest to or question that as I have no personal data.  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not have any external oil hose(s).  Here's a picture of the same area that Ken showed in his picture, but horizontal just behind the back of the alternator, forward of the starter.

Folks, it is EASY to check to see if you have any.  Grab a flashlight, open the head alternator access door, and look.  Straight through, port to starboard.

If we had the "issue" we WOULD have heard about it.  We haven't.  Thanks for the warning, though.

PS- Sorry about the dirt, I'm cleaning it up now! 

[scgunner]

    Stu,

      The fact that this post didn't apply to the C34 was not initially made clear by the article. But since it was posted on the C34 message board I had reason to believe it did. What surprised me was that Ken's fairly alarming post received not a single response. Until now I didn't realize that the M-25 came in different iterations, I thought when Universal made changes to the motor they changed the model number as well(example XP). Since Catalina didn't provide an oil pressure gauge if this situation did apply to the C-34 it could be problematic.
       While I've only been actively posting recently, I have been around for awhile(based on the number of membership renewal checks I've sent to you). I've owned Top Gun since 1988 so I've been "at it" for awhile too.

      Ron,

        My boat is an '87 as per the Certificate of Ownership and unfortunately didn't get the XP upgrade, I got the M-25. With my luck they probably started putting the XP in hull #274.

[Stu Jackson]

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
1.  Until now I didn't realize that the M-25 came in different iterations, I thought when Universal made changes to the motor they changed the model number as well(example XP).

2.  Since Catalina didn't provide an oil pressure gauge if this situation did apply to the C-34 it could be problematic.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1.  The XP is a slightly different engine:  23 VS. 21 hp of the M25, has the upgraded alternator bracket standard, with a 3 inch HX.

2.  I agree, which is why I keep saying M25 engines on C34s wouldn't have that "feature."

That "at it" was more for Ken's benefit.

I don't know what boat first got the XP, but previous history indicates the change may not have been on consecutive hull #s, since Ron has reported that sometime Catalina used "what was around"; for example:  so #273 could have had the M25, #274 the XP and #275 an M25.  Remember they made almost 800 boats the first few years of production.

[Ron Hill]

SCG : That's why I said MOST 1987s, because if the Catalina factory had a 1986 engine left over they surly would have installed it in the new year (1987) production!! 

That's why you can NEVER say "Always" when it comes to Catalina!!!

A thought

[KWKloeber]

The fact that this post didn't apply to the C34 was not initially made clear by the article.  But since it was posted on the C34 message board I had reason to believe it did. What surprised me was that Ken's fairly alarming post received not a single response. Until now I didn't realize that the M-25 came in different iterations, I thought when Universal made changes to the motor they changed the model number as well(example XP). Since Catalina didn't provide an oil pressure gauge if this situation did apply to the C-34 it could be problematic.

Kevin

This has taken on more of a life than it deserves!  A clarification -- my original post was copied over from a post to the C-30 brethren, who mostly have more of the M-25s than do thou brethren.  I know nearly all the C-30 M-25s had the remote oil block, and I know of only one of our C-30 owners who doesn't (that's not to imply that is an accurate proportion.)  I should edit the post to make clear it's "if your M-25 does..."  not that "...ALL do."

Yes, one would think (hope?) that if an engine configuration changes, there should be (1) some model name indication, or at least (2) a published record of the change(s?) by date or serial number.  Not so.  For instance, the XP introduced a different bell housing with a recess that the 3" Hx fits into (moves forward away from the tranny dipstick) and 2 vertical Hx brackets on the bell housing (vs. the M-25 single horizontal Hx bracket that bolts to a flat buss on the bell housing.)  Simple, right... M-25 vs XP?

Well not so simple because, for instance, the XP in Albion is a mongrel.  She has the old (M-25) bell housing, new (3") Hx, and a Hx bracket from the M-35 (that you won't find in the M-25 or XP parts list.)  Later XPs have the redesigned bell housing and Hx mount.  Universal morphed from the M-25 to the "final" XP configuration -- it wasn't a clean break and likely used up parts that were on hand (like old bell housings) -- just like Ron explained Catalina did.  AND, that XP has the thermostat bypass hose intact (as it came from Japan,) rather than with the water heater loop connected there (as most? all? many? other) XPs were installed.  (But, that might have been a PO reversal -- unknown.)  Also, quite often parts manuals and model info are simply WRONG.  Another for instance -- the H bracket that's listed for the M-25 is NOT the bracket that fits or was used on the M-25.  I know -- I ordered a new bracket per the manual and had to throw it away because it wasn't even close, so I fashioned my own.

I like to say....
if you look up "Standard," "Typical," and "Normally" in a dictionary.  Next to those you will never see a boat manufacturer's or marine engine manufacturer's picture."

k

[scgunner]

    Ken,

     It has indeed! However your post and the follow up responses have been quite enlightening regarding the make up of the M-25. Now I know it's like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get.