Engine Electrical Connection Issues

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 12:43:30 AM

During the Riser replacement project, I was able to dig into the engine electrical connection, this may explain a few things!

This block was beneath a plastic 'umbrella' that was screwed to the underside of the engine compartment just above the hole in the port side bulkhead where the hoses pass from the Head to the Engine Bay.

My initial thoughts are:
.. Seriously!
.. Definitely signs of sparking / heating / corrosion

Anyone know if there is a standard color coding that seems to apply to this thing?

Paul

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 01:02:57 AM

Did a bit of research on the web. Could not find a suitable replacement block.

Ideally it would be a covered block that took ring terminals and suitable for hot (engine bay) environments.

Ken?

Jon W · July 17, 2016, 03:22:52 AM

Looks like it was installed as part of the engine harness electrical upgrade. There are wiring diagrams with color coding in the engine harness upgrade links.

KWKloeber · July 17, 2016, 07:53:34 AM

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 01:02:57 AM
Did a bit of research on the web. Could not find a suitable replacement block.

Ideally it would be a covered block that took ring terminals and suitable for hot (engine bay) environments.

Ken?

Email coming - don't get me started on here about Catalina and Universal and the engine harness. Wisdom is it was ok to supply inferior products and do inferior work -- Catalina gets a pass.

k

KWKloeber · July 17, 2016, 07:55:18 AM

Quote from: Jon W on July 17, 2016, 03:22:52 AM
Looks like it was installed as part of the engine harness electrical upgrade. There are wiring diagrams with color coding in the engine harness upgrade links.

No harness upgrade, but PO did install a eurostrip (and remove at at least the engine-end gummy bear plug) when switching from the ammeter to voltmeter.

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 08:01:41 AM

Looking up the color codes in the Tech Wiki and listing them according to the Order in which they are connected to the terminal block.

Purple - Alternator Exciter
Yellow - Starter ?????? (And this is the one that shows heat damage)
Light Blue - Oil Pressure Switch
Yellow/Red - Starter (this goes to an inline fuse then to the starter)
Black - Ground
Tan/Brown - Temp Sender
Grey - Glow Plugs

Note: Determined by Inspection

Paul

KWKloeber · July 17, 2016, 08:59:47 AM

Paul

Eurostrip is the worst possible option

Term strips are avail, but it depends on what your objective is (see email) - just fix what's there, or make it at least compliant, or improve.
If you want to just fix what's there, butt crimp the ends - there's no need for a term strip. If you want to improve, then there's options, increasing levels of improvement, etc.

Kk

Stu Jackson · July 17, 2016, 09:46:49 AM

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 08:01:41 AM
Looking up the color codes in the Tech Wiki and listing them according to the Order in which they are connected to the terminal block.

Purple - Alternator Exciter
Yellow - Starter ?????? (And this is the one that shows heat damage)
Light Blue - Oil Pressure Switch
Yellow/Red - Starter (this goes to an inline fuse then to the starter)
Black - Ground
Tan/Brown - Temp Sender
Grey - Glow Plugs

Note: Determined by Inspection

Paul

Paul,

Good for you tracing them yourself.

Here's a link with the OEM wiring diagram:

Engine harness upgrade: A comprehensive overview by Gerry Douglas Important WARNING for M25 owners

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade

Ken's position on the harness and connections is well documented in the Critical Upgrades topic. Just hate to need to have him retype the obvious, over and over again!

Ron Hill's point is also well taken: butt 'em together, 'cuz if you ever (re)move your engine, you're gonna disconnect the wires at the engine anyway. And Ron replaced his entire engine, so he should know.

Yellow/red - understand the difference between the starter and the starter solenoid.

Good luck.

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 09:53:33 AM

As per your email.
I'm not going for a gold here, but silver is really good.

So I'm going to rework the wiring and service the starter.
..Get rid of the Euro Strip and replace it with a Terminal Block (Blue Sea).
..Remove the Alternator to get to the starter. Remove the Starter and service is as per "Slow or Difficult to Start Universal M-25XP Engine" in the Tech Wiki.
..Clean up/Recrimp/Replace any wires from the terminal strip to the engine as needed.

..Inspect the Control Panel to see if the PO did a quicky upgrade (ie. just install a voltmeter) and hope that I don't find another can of worms back there, and if I do, oh well, it'll just B.O.A.T.

It'll be a whole lot easier doing all of this with the Riser out and the Hx out.

I want to be sailing within by the end of the month!!!

Paul

KWKloeber · July 17, 2016, 10:15:42 AM

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 09:53:33 AM
As per your email.
I'm not going for a gold here, but silver is really good.

So I'm going to rework the wiring and service the starter.
..Get rid of the Euro Strip and replace it with a Terminal Block (Blue Sea).
..Remove the Alternator to get to the starter. Remove the Starter and service is as per "Slow or Difficult to Start Universal M-25XP Engine" in the Tech Wiki.
..Clean up/Recrimp/Replace any wires from the terminal strip to the engine as needed.

..Inspect the Control Panel to see if the PO did a quicky upgrade (ie. just install a voltmeter) and hope that I don't find another can of worms back there, and if I do, oh well, it'll just B.O.A.T.

It'll be a whole lot easier doing all of this with the Riser out and the Hx out.

I want to be sailing within by the end of the month!!!

Paul

Paul,

The burnt "yellow" (is either the OEM red or orange and) is your power supply to the panel.

Silver steps emailed to you.

Note that the upgrade Gerry suggests in the write up is NON ABYC compliant and continues a FIRE HAZARD inherent in the OEM harness (that was corrected with the M-25XPB engine/harness.) YBYC, but there's more needed than just GErry's steps -- to make it right.

While you have the starter out, replace the solenoid with the post style - it's well worth the 50 boat bucks. The quick connect style is nothing but future problems.

k

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 10:32:12 AM

Thanks Stu, that is the wiki article I read this morning. Really good.

Another is http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Slow_or_Difficult_to_Start_Universal_M-25XP_Engine

Good point about the butt joints, simplifies a lot and will also eliminate some of the existing butt joints that are within 2" of each other on the same wire!

Paul

KWKloeber · July 17, 2016, 10:49:40 AM

Paul,

One caution and two comments on the starter article:

Be aware that as installed wiring does not comply with ABYC for 2 reasons -- one of which is that the harness remains a fire hazard.
With the OEM 55-amp alt, the only reason to use 6 awg charge cable is if you don't have a crimper for an 8 awg lug.
Alt frame should additionally be grounded w/ an 8 awg cable (6 awg for the 72 amp alt.)

kk

Stu Jackson · July 17, 2016, 02:46:00 PM

Ken's right, of course.

The ONLY purpose of posting that link to Gerry's article was in response to Paul's request for the color coding.

I also sketched them out from when I replaced my alternator and added a new regulator, and the link is in the "Electrical Systems 101" topic, "Alt/Reg Wiring - all three"

Unless you're sure it's the starter, perhaps you don't have to pull it. OTOH, "while you're in there..."

Gee, that phrase keeps comin' up, but once you're done in there, you truly will be in great shape.

Ron Hill · July 17, 2016, 02:47:11 PM

Paul : You have part of the Wiring harness upgrade. If your 1987 C34 has a Volt meter you have the other most important part of the upgrade. There was another third part of the upgrade and that was to run a short heavy wire (most of us used a #6/#4 gage) from the alternator output direct to the starter solenoid.

If you have those items you have the upgrade I wouldn't worry!!

Any "burnt insolation" on the wiring was probably have been from the old trailer plugs that your previous owner eliminated. There is another Euro Strip at the engine instrument panel. The old trailer plugs did literally burn up!!

For Kens' sake, that old wiring with the trailer connectors was used by Universal and Catalina to facilitate the factory production line!!!

Paul, if you ever have to remove your engine you are going to disconnect all wiring at the engine and never go to any euro strip of wiring block - believe me!!

I put my Euro Strips in Rubber-Made Boxes , snapped the lid on it and all has worked just fine since 1991!!

So don't be alarmed!!

A few thoughts

britinusa · July 17, 2016, 03:01:20 PM

WYIT (While You're In There) is becoming a catch phrase to be used when starting any boat project.

Listing several issues: Starter has an initial reluctance, Tach will drop to zero on occasion when the engine is running, Multiple inline butt connectors on the same wires between the panel and the engine, Smart Regulator is not connected, (the spare regulator is) they are both remote, at least one of the harness wires is undersized, corrosion on at least one of the wires in the terminal block.

So I'm going to bite the bullet and put in a new harness. Eliminate the known terminal block (and either 2nd TB or Gummy bear connector behind the panel), and as others have put it, I'll sleep better!

I'll go down to the boat early this week and sketch out the engine side of the existing harness and look into pulling the control panel out of the coaming. At least at that point I'll know what I'm getting into.

Anyone have a source for the Starter Brushes? WYIT ... I'm going to pull the starter and service that too.

Paul