Engine Wire Harness Upgrade Questions

[britinusa]

So, is this what is referred to as a  'TermStrip'

If so, IMHO not a good thing as there are no anti vibration restraints in place.
Is that the general consensus? or is it the preferred connection device?

(Sometimes it pays to just ask the dumb questions)

paul

[Stu Jackson]

So, is this what is referred to as a  'TermStrip'

If so, IMHO not a good thing as there are no anti vibration restraints in place.
Is that the general consensus? or is it the preferred connection device?

(Sometimes it pays to just ask the dumb questions)

Not a dumb question at all.

Nope, those are the Euro strips.  Terms strips have screws to connect ring terminals.  

1.  anti vibration restraints --- has nothing to do with it.  Anti vibration is taken care of with drip loops in the wiring to and from ANY terminal device, not in the device itself.

2.  The disadvantage of this Euro strip is that the connection points are TINY compared to even the smallest standard terminal strip.  In addition, the ends of the wires are under pressure from screws, also not recommended.  Standard terminal strips use crimped on ring terminals.

Point being that the Euro strips were a bad answer to a horrible OEM with the gummy bear plugs while still an improvement over them.

Next is to go to terminal strips with ring terminals.  They are also called terminal blocks, like the photo below.

Better yet, hard wire.

That said, the Euro strips that my PO put in over 20 years ago still work.

[KWKloeber]

Sorry guys, having difficulty understanding what you are talking about when it comes to gummy bears, termsticks, etc.

Here's a pic showing some do-hickies in my boats wiring harness.

Any chance you guys can post pics showing a harness gummy bear, termstrip etc look like?

Thanks.

Paul

This is (was???) my trailer / aka "RV" plug after many years hiding under electrical tape I wrapped it in to keep corrosion out.  It fell apart in my hand when I unwrapped it.  Scary huh?  There's a few problems with those plugs that I won't go into right now, and especially with the Catalina/cockpit harness half of the plug.  Understand that half the plug is supplied by Universal/Westerbeke with the engine, the other half was manufactured.

I coined the phrase "Gummy Bear" several years ago because CTY/Seaward made the mating plugs (the amber colored half) out of basically hot glue in a mold, rather than buying the Universal/Westerbeke harnesses that mates to the OWM plug (the OEM plug is the hard white side.)     That saved $$$$, of course, but when they get old and deteriorated from engine heat, they take on a "Gummy Bear" consistency and fall apart.

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Ken

[KWKloeber]

I'm going to take the wire to a local electrical supply to see if they carry this type wire or equivalent. Looking online THHN/THWN has less strands, but the exact same specifications as AWM otherwise. It even references THHN/THWN used as AWM.

Jon W.

Jon,

You want UL 1426 "Type 3" tinned marine wire.  Type 3 is fine-stranded. meant to withstand vibration/flexing, as opposed to Type 2, which is SAE "truck wire."  Type 3 tinned sells for:

AWG
8   - 0.75/ft
10 - 0.40
12 - 0.35
14 - 0.25
16 - 0.20

JTSO, FWIW, ITWMB, YBYC, etc <wink>  I maintain that a "gold standard' harness upgrade for an M25/XP/XPA (if one needs heavy power to the cockpit) consists of a:

#1 wire - 8 awg negative return.

#2 wire - 10 awg wire to the glow plugs.

#3 wire - 10 awg "S" wire to the starter solenoid.

#5 wire - 8 awg power supply to panel.

#6/#9 wire  - 12 awg for combined alternator excite and fuel pump power circuits (OEM they are separate wires which is **stoooopid**)
Only 16 awg is needed, but 12 awg avoids a separate fuse/breaker at the panel.

The wires below need no over-current protection:

 #7 wire - 16 awg to oil pressure switch.
#8 wire - 16 awg to temp gauge sender.
#10 wire - 10 awg for tach a/c signal.
                16 awg to high temp switch (if equipped with one.)

So for a properly sized, 16-foot harness the cost should be:
12.00 + 12.00 + 6.40 + 6.40 + 5.60 + 3.20 + 3.20 + 6.40 + 3.20 = $58.40 for a basic gold standard 16-foot harness.

For a bronze standard (10 awg instead of 8 awg power and negative) = $40.90

NOTE:  If one has the glow plug relay mod, then a 20-a fuse on the #5 wire can me used.  If a 20-a is used, then the #2 wire and the #6/9 wires can be reduced to 14 awg.)



Plus adding the following:

A maxi fuse holder on the #5 wire, with a 30-amp fuse or maxi breaker (unless one has the preheat solenoid/relay mod in the engine compartment, then reduce it to 20 amp.)
(if doing the bronze standard, then a 10-AWG ATC fuse holder.)

An 8 awg charge cable (#4 wire) from the Alt B+ (output) to the solenoid B post.

A new #2301 ground buss bar mounted near the engine.

Moving the battery negative from the bell housing bolt to a starter mount bolt.

A new 8 awg negative cable from that starter bolt to the new ground buss bar.

A new 8 awg ground cable from the Alt frame/B- terminal to the new ground buss bar.

If one has the OEM "8MR" Motorola alternator w/the pigtail and black plastic "excite" terminal:  Clipping off the (untinned, non-moisture proof) terminal from the pigtail, and crimping on male/female moisture-proof, AHS quick-connect terminals.



Note that RC (mainesail) uses 6 awg for the alternator charge and negative cables because he doesn't have a suitable crimper for 8 awg. I do have one that does great #8 crimps, so I don't overkill those 2 cables -- obviously 6 awg is perfectly fine also.

BETTER YET, depending on your switch and battery bank set up (combiner?), run the charge cable right to the batteries.

Ken

[KWKloeber]

The fuse however seems to be all over the map. Use 20 amp, use 30 amp, don't do it, use ATC type, add a second fuse to the red wire (which is also in the engine manual schematic). Adding the 20 Amp ATC type for the reasons Mainsail points out, and moved away from the engine as Stu and others have done might be the way I make the upgrade. Not sure yet about the additional 30 Amp on the red wire. Still a couple of weeks to decide, but then all critical upgrades listed on this site will be complete. Other improvements and learning will continue.

Jon,  here's the poop on the two fuses....

1st - I ass/u/me you have an M25 or XP, basically OEM w/ no electrical mods or upgrades?

2nd - your boat your choice, FWIW, JTSO, etc.  <wink>

3rd - I don't know your technical level, so some things below might be obvious, and some below may not be detailed enough -

4th - below is sort of disjointed and also part of my "Part 2" of the Universal harness problems/fixes that I haven't had time to finish writing up. Part 1 (the problems w/ the harness) was posted previously.

Take many pix (close up, before/after, etc) and I can use some when I do finish the write-up.

Do you have a *good quality* Adhesive Heat Shrink terminal crimper? And top quality AHS terminals?  And top quality HS Tubing? Note that you cannot use a double-crimp type tool on AHS type terminals, you need a single-crimp-type tool.


Solenoid "S" (starter) wire

Crimp the adhesive heat shrink (AHS) 1/4" female quick connect terminal onto a 6" pigtail, then **carefully** solder it to the tab (don't allow the solder to cause a work hardening point on the pigtail.)  Apply a couple layers HST to the pigtail/terminal so the wire has a strain/bend relief as it comes off the terminal.  I use 1 layer of mil spec for that, but that's hard to find for 10 AWG diameter.

**caveat** soldering of boat electrical wiring is discouraged because most don't do so correctly, but it's FINE if done correctly. (ie, no hardening of the wire strands, proper heat sink when soldering, providing wire strain/bend relief, etc.)


Solenoid "S" (starter) wire fuse

The ONLY purpose of the fuse on the S wire -- is so that if it falls off the solenoid S terminal and shorted against the engine block *while* you are cranking, the fuse will protect the S wire.  If there's a short between the panel and the fuse, it protects nothing.  If you solder the pigtail to the solenoid, the need for a fuse there is zero.


#5 wire (power lead) fuse

You ** do need** a fuse on the power (#5 red) supply to the panel (per ABYC - within 7" of the solenoid B terminal post.  One problem with that location is no one makes ring terminals that are heavy enough. Good, heavy "starter lugs" are available for 8 awg, but not for 10 awg.   The ring terminals for an M8 post x 10 awg are crap and are way too light.  If there's movement of the harness they will *eventually* bend, work-harden, and the ring break off.  On a panel I did last year, the owner wanted heavy power to the cockpit (accessories, spotlight outlet, no starting issues, etc.) so I upgraded the #5 wire to 8 AWG,and used a starter lug and a maxi-fuse holder w/ a maxi-breaker for the over-current protection.  See pic below.  


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The new fuse would be on your 10 AWG #5 wire to the panel, so a 30 amp is fine, right?  NOT!
When 'bundled" into a harness, 14 AWG w/ 105C insulation is good for 21a when inside the engine compartment.  So the #5 fuse needs to be 20 amp UNLESS you have a fuse/breaker on the panel to protect wires/circuits from the panel back to the engine. Note the breaker shown above is 30 a (but I also upgraded the panel with a 20-a breaker.)  

HOWEVER, unless you have the glow plug/preheat solenoid/relay mod, the current flow is 18 amps (3 x 6 amps) for the glow plugs (plus the start solenoid switch if you happen to "glow" while cranking -- I  don't know what the pull-in amps are for that solenoid switch but have vowed to measure it (haven't yet.)  So, you need a 30-a fuse on the #5 wire.  IF you use an ATC fuse holder, then it's easy to try 20, 25, 30.  Remember that even if the limit for 14 awg is 21 a, SOME protection is better than NO protection.  Life isn't perfect -- especially when you're retrofitting with a substandard CD/Seaward product that is over-sized on some wires and under-sized on others (oooops now you have me started up again.)

If I have to use 10 AWG wire on a large terminal (larger than 1/4" post) then I do a no-no, but it's 100% better than using a substandard terminal.  I use a heavy duty #8 lug, and double back the stripped 10 awg wire and crimp it, and then heat shrink it with mil spec adhesive heat shrink tubing.  As I said, it isn't 100% Kosher, but until someone makes a HD lug for 10 awg wire, it's the next best option (again life isn't perfect) and the circular mils of doubled up 10 AWG is compatible with a #8 AWG lug.  

Also, the panel should be rewired with AHS terminals and tinned wire.  The OEM is completely inappropriate.  See pix below of an OEM (Westerbeke, not Seaward) panel before and after (how Westerbeke should have manufactured it.)

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Ken

[Jon W]

Hi Ken,
   After comparing yesterday, I will be using tinned stranded marine grade wire. The prices you list must be wholesale, 10AWG here is $0.74/ft.

        I'm guessing For What its Worth, If That Were My Boat, Your Boat Your Choice, but you got me on JTSO.

        I have a universal M25XP, a new PrestoLite / Leece-Neville 105 AMP alternator, and the charge cable is connected from the AO to the start solenoid. Otherwise no electrical upgrades that I've come across, and no glow plug relay.

        I don't have a #9 or #10 wire. So guess that means no over current protection required on the #6 wire?

       Why use a 2301 Blue Sea ground buss bar instead of a 2303? So many screws on the 2301 seems like a waste for 3 ground wires. Or am I looking at the wrong buss bar?

       Glad to take pictures. Should I post on the message board for review? Just let me know.

       I haven't bought anything but Kit "A" and the 16 ft harness. I will be buying AHS insulated ring terminals, butt connectors, F connect/disconnect, and HS Tubing. I was thinking #8 ring connector would work for wires #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and ¼" for the #1 and 5. Seem right?

      The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?

      Upgraded the panel to add a breaker/fuse, but I can't see the 20A breaker/fuse in the picture. Where is the second fuse?

      Great guide that I need to read a few more times. Let me know how you want to handle the pictures.

Jon W.

[KWKloeber]

Jon, see below:

  The prices you list must be wholesale, 10AWG here is $0.74/ft.

***
Those are my prices on Ancor when doing work or wire retail.  I try to stay w/in pennies of the discount sites like Mike @ genuinedealz.com or bestboatwire.com.  Mike is a good guy - he carries Pacer wire (I think) and the same good FTZ terminals that Rod (mainesail) likes and I have and use.  Pacer is OK wire, I prefer Ancor, but not Ancor terminals.
***  

you got me on JTSO.

*** Just THIS Sailor's Opinion *** <wink>  - My own J One SO

       I don't have a #9 or #10 wire. So guess that means no over current protection required on the #6 wire?

***
You have a #9 and a #10 (remember Stu's look at the circuit's/wire's PURPOSE, not just colors and numbers (OEM neither run thru the Gummy Bear.)  Print and study an XP engine wiring schematic before you do this to understand each circuit's function.  There WILL be a true/false test on this.  
I'll give you the 1st answer..... "False."   (to "The CD/Seaward harness kit solves the XP wiring issues.")

***


      Why use a 2301 Blue Sea ground buss bar

***
I have every possible nearby ground (on my C-30) to a buss to eliminate voltage loss on negative runs back to the panel - bilge pump, port cabin lights, nav lights, water pressure pump, port side 12-v outlets (I installed 14 duplex outlets around the saloon, 5 in the vee, 2 on pedestal).
***

      Should I post on the message board for review? Just let me know.

***Probably best to email to me KWKloeber@aol.com for my use, but posting?   YFYC! ***
[/b]
**Your Forum, Your choice**

I was thinking #8 ring connector would work for wires #....

***
Here's the sizes I have for the XP - YMMV

#2, #8 ring @ GPs, #8 ring GP @ panel switch
#6,  need to ck your alt post - probably #8
#7, #8 ring @ oil switch
#8,  I have it as #8 ring @ sender, but I swear it is a #6.
and ¼" for the #1 and 5.  YES
***

*** Of course the buss bar has #8s for any grounds. ***

     The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?

*** As I recall on that job, I got a 6 AWG.  Or maybe I could get the #6 (which is SAE size) into the #8 AWG size butt.  (CRS.) ***

     I can't see the 20A breaker/fuse in the picture. Where is the second fuse?

*** At the panel, protect the circuits returning back to the engine.***

[Stu Jackson]

Guys, if you two wanna take this offline, at the very least you owe us the conclusions.  Why not keep it here?

[KWKloeber]

      The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?

jon,

If you do a search on 8 AWG maxifuse, there's a host of 8 awg maxis available.  Of course they are 8 SAE gauge, not 8 AWG, but amperage isn't an issue, so that's not a concern.  FWIW, anything over 10 AWG, I use uninsulatd terminals/heavy-duty butts and then HST them.  For uninsulated terms, I use a dimple or my hex type crimper, rather than an AHS terminal type crimper.

[Jon W]

Thanks Ken. I still have to solve my in tank fuel pick up tube problem, but when in there looking around I noticed the engine control panel electrical bits have no protection/housing around it. Catalina Direct has them for sale, but would appreciate feedback on whether that is something that should be added during this electrical upgrade process or is it $125 I don't need to spend? Thanks.  Jon W.

[KWKloeber]

Thanks Ken. I still have to solve my in tank fuel pick up tube problem, but when in there looking around I noticed the engine control panel electrical bits have no protection/housing around it. Catalina Direct has them for sale, but would appreciate feedback on whether that is something that should be added during this electrical upgrade process or is it $125 I don't need to spend? Thanks.  Jon W.

Jon

The panel tray isn't really necessary, but I would defo redo the wiring on the panel using adhesive heat shrink terminals.

I'll put it this way -- a panel WITH tinned wire and AHS terminals w/o the tray, is a LOT better than a panel w/ the tray having crappy wire and terminals!

Ken

[mainesail]

Guys,

If you wire in a start solenoid for the glow plugs, as there should be, then there is really no need for 8GA wire in the engine wiring harness because all you are powering is the fuel pump & solenoids (for seconds). These loads are fractions of what a 10GA 105C wire can easily handle.......

I do have crimp tools for 8GA I just often prefer to skip right over it, when I can, because 8GA is an oddball size with limited selections of terminals compared to 6GA or 10GA. My 8GA crimp tools are very expensive (USA made) and not tools a regular DIY would purchase so I often advise skipping 8GA rather than investing in a sub standard tool. I've yet to find an inexpensive 8GA tool I could recommend...

It also requires carrying yet another two crimp tools in my bag which already has about six crimp tools in it. A glow solenoid will run about $20.00 and is worth every penny and if mounted close to the starter solenoid 10GA wire is more than adequate for the 10-15 seconds it is being used to drive the plugs on an M-25.

On another note if anyone wants a true top quality USA made heat shrink crimp tool I have worked closely with a USA tool maker now for over two years and finally have one to offer. They are not cheap, $145.00, but you won't find a tool that makes a better formed crimp on heat shrink terminals. I generally sell these to professionals but if opting for DIY wiring I would highly recommend this tool!!
......

[KWKloeber]

Guys,

If you wire in a start solenoid for the glow plugs, as there should be, then there is really no need for 8GA wire in the engine wiring harness because all you are powering is the fuel pump & solenoids (for seconds). These loads are fractions of what a 10GA 105C wire can easily handle.......

I do have crimp tools for 8GA I just often prefer to skip right over it, when I can, because 8GA is an oddball size with limited selections of terminals compared to 6GA or 10GA. My 8GA crimp tools are very expensive (USA made) and not tools a regular DIY would purchase so I often advise skipping 8GA rather than investing in a sub standard tool. I've yet to find an inexpensive 8GA tool I could recommend...

It also requires carrying yet another two crimp tools in my bag which already has about six crimp tools in it. A glow solenoid will run about $20.00 and is worth every penny and if mounted close to the starter solenoid 10GA wire is more than adequate for the 10-15 seconds it is being used to drive the plugs on an M-25.

On another note if anyone wants a true top quality USA made heat shrink crimp tool I have worked closely with a USA tool maker now for over two years and finally have one to offer. They are not cheap, $145.00, but you won't find a tool that makes a better formed crimp on heat shrink terminals. I generally sell these to professionals but if opting for DIY wiring I would highly recommend this tool!!
......

RC,

FIRST - DON'T keep us in the dark - link us to a quality AHS crimper!!   

What I had recalled from some post somewhere (I believe I think that I may remember that I recall -  i.e., CRS) -- was that you couldn't find a decent 8GA crimper.  I probably (no, likely DID) "mis-remember" that post.

I'm surprised that the range of 8GA terminals are less available than 6GA.  For anything above 10GA, I use uninsulated lugs/butts and not AHS terminals -- so I can't comment on availability of AHS terms.   But for starter and power lugs, I use FTZ, and find that there are as many sizes avail in 8GA as there are for 6GA (#10, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2.) 

I'm interested in why you characterize 8GA as "odd ball"?  Every wire and terminal supplier I have seen has 8GA, so I'm unsure what you mean.  And if one uses AHS terms w/ larger wire (I won't) you can get 8GA, but I haven't seen 6GA.

To clarify, on the particular harness with the 8GA, the owner wanted a high amp circuit / low voltage loss to the cockpit, and I wanted to provide as little voltage loss as reasonable versus the cost of copper -- the decision for 8Ga was driven by that, not by current capacity.  Certainly 10GA was more than sufficient per 11.14.2.  And if he was using a heavy-duty spotlight while cranking the GPs and engaging the starter (I put nothing past the decisions an owner may make at any given point in time), I wanted enough voltage to pop the solenoid.

Let me take a different angle on the preheat solenoid and harness wire size.....

On the preheat - I'm really torn by this. I believe the average person shouldn't have a preheat solenoid because the reasoning below.  I don't think there's a clear winner "best" option -- but pros and cons to weigh out.

Introducing one more failure point - I installed one, but it's a continuous-duty 40-amp, plug-in, power relay, not a "Ford" starter solenoid.  (It shows our age if anyone remembers shorting out those with a screwdriver to crank the engine while working under the hood.)  The relay is pop-in/pop-out in a socket and I carry a spare -- no need for even a screwdriver if it fails. 

The real danger of burning out the coil and/or GPs - I know how long to crank the GPs, but I just had a customer burn out his Westerbeke OEM XPB preheat solenoid coil while trying run the pump to bleed the fuel lines.  Stooopid stoopid set up that Wb/Univ has there, and POS solenoid -- but sometimes we have to idiot-proof systems to avoid disasters.   Second, that the GPs are 10 volt -- it's not such a bad thing to have a long 10GA circuit to introduce some voltage loss into the equation.  Again, I'm torn, but generally don't recommend a preheat solenoid to the "turn the key and go" type owner.


Ken

[Jon W]

I've zoomed and scrolled but can't find the fuse. Where in the after picture of the engine panel wiring improvements is the fuse? Jon W

[KWKloeber]

I've zoomed and scrolled but can't find the fuse. Where in the after picture of the engine panel wiring improvements is the fuse? Jon W

Jon

OHHHHH, now I get it.  Apologies for the confuzion!

No they were two different jobs.   The 8ga #5 wire w/ maxi fuse was on a C-30 with an M-25XP (no preheat solenoid) and OEM Seaward panel (I didn't have a pic of that.)  It's just a 20a push-button breaker thru the panel face, with a clear silicone screw-on cap for weather protection.  I also had a new Cole-Hersee dual alarm (light/buzzer) for the oil pressure and temp stitches.

The pic of the panel was just an example of making a bad panel good -- trashing the stake-on terminals and replacing with AHS terminals and decent wiring connections.  That was on a CS-36T with a Westerbeke W-30 engine and Westerbeke Admiral panel.   The W-30 is wired OEM with a 20-a breaker on the engine -- the set up is essentially similar to the M-25XPB, M-35B, etc. wiring and the harness is already protected.  It also has a preheat solenoid, so the 20-a breaker is plenty.  That was a broken Wb panel face and I also switched from the OEM "key-push-in" preheat switch, to a separate push-button preheat sw.  The owner is pretty well on in years and found it hard to get his fingers in the little hole and hold the key in the preheat position.

Ken