leaking cabin top hand rails

[Set2sea]

I just got my new 1988 Cat 34 delivered yesterday. One of the first projects on the list is to stop all interior water leaks. I have read the posts on hand rail leaks.
People seem to stress to not remore the hand rails and try tightening them. My experience with leaks is that the bedding compound has failed and you need to take the joint apart, clean and rebed. Is it really that big of a deal to take these suckers off. Wondering why some feel that tightening them could be sucsessful? I never hear anybody say that for a leaking stachion base. I saw an artilce was written about this in Mainsheet. I just joined C34IA via PayPal. Is it worth me waiting until I get my login/password to the Mainshhet and read that article?

[Stu Jackson]

The "issue" with removing them completely is that they are installed curved, but when you take them off they go straight and are hard to replace, needs two guys most times.  In addition, there are both screws and all thread holding them down.  The all threads are covered with bungs on the top of the handrails.  When or if you lift them or remove them, PARTIALLY unscrew the screws and remove the acorn nuts from the bungs, but ONLY tap up on the screws, or else you will knock the bungs out unnecessarily.

What I recommend is to just lift them, clean up whatever sealant may be there and then rebed them with Maine Sail's butyl tape.

I just spent the last week removing the cetol from my handrails and eyebrows.  I did not remove the handrails, even though some suggest it is way easier to do so to do this work.  It really was a bear to get under the rungs, but I did it with a good quality scraper, not just a putty knife.

Your boat, your choice.

[Set2sea]

I never knew threaded rod was called all thread (until you wrote that Stu and I Googled it)!
With all thread (threaded rod) used as fastener coming from the hand rail, how does the all thread not spin when you loosen the nut inside the cabin. The/my evidence of hand rail leaks is severely corroded acorn nuts. I'm sure these aren't going to be easy to loosen.
In trying to undestrand Catalina's system for hand rails - Why a mix of all thread and screws?
Paul

[Stu Jackson]

It appears the all thread was there for strength for one of every three or four loops and the screws were there to hold the intermediate loops down to the cabintop.

I understand your concern about the all thread, but when I removed my acorn nuts, severely corroded as you described yours, either of two things happened:  the thread turned and I had to bang up and remove and replace the teak bungs, or they didn't.  I'd try some PB Blaster on the nuts before you try to remove them, let it soak overnight.  Might be a tad smelly down below...

In thinking about it some more, worst you can do is have the acorn nuts lock, in which case the all thread would simply screw down into the cabin and out of the handrail.

[Les Luzar]

I removed my hand rails to rebed them and did not have any problems re-installing them, although, I did have a helper. Just make sure that you mark the forward and aft sides of the rail. And if you remove both make sure you mark which is port and which is starboard.  I rebed with bytul tape and they have been bone dry ever since. As a thought, have some extra washers available because at least in my case, the acorn nut would sometimes bottom out before the bolt was tight enought to pull completely down on the handrail. I also used a locking washer on under each acorn nut as well. This way you can layer the washers to insure a tight fit. This is an easy job, just time consuming removing all of the old sealant from the deck. If you do choose to remove the hand rails, it is a good time to sand and refinish them, since it is a lot easier once they are removed from the boat. In my case I leave the hand rails natural teak, since I have blue Sunbrella covers which I never remove. All the rest of my teak is varnished. The hand rails are too much work to keep up for me with varnish. FYI

[Ron Hill]

Set2 : Drill out the teak bungs and then remove the hand rails.  Take them home and refinish them. 
Take the bolts and cut a slot across the threaded end so when you reinstall them you can put a screwdriver in that cut.  After threading on  washer and nut the screw driver will hold the bolt in place while you tighten the nut. 

Use butyl rubber to bed each hole - it works great.  Look in WiKi/Projects/posts and how to bed butyl rubber.  A few thoughts

[Roland Gendreau]

So I am in process of removing handrails for cetol stripping, sanding and refinishing in my garage. All the screws came out easily with my impact screwdriver.  But 1 acorn nut is frozen.  I removed the bung to expose the slotted head of the machine screw...but it isn't possible to hold the head tightly enough to remove the frozen acorn nut.  PB blaster has been applied but no luck yet.

I don't see an easy way to cut the shaft of the screw between the acorn and the ceiling.  Seems like the next step is to drill into the head of the screw and use an easy out - or drill the head off completely.

Any suggestions? 

[Noah]

I have had luck in similar situation (albeit not this exact one) of using vice grips locked on to the acorn nut and bend bolt back and forth a few times. The bolt should snap right off flush. The only fly in the orientment is if the you can't get enough (micro) clearence to get the acorn nut to move side to side enough to snap the bolt or if the bolt starts to deform the hole through the deck. You will know if this is going to work or not pretty quick.

[Ron Hill]

Roland : I'd try to use a Dremal tool and cut thru the acorn nut.  That way you won't screw up the gel-coat interior.

You should have a washer and/or a nut between the acorn nut and the gelcoat, so you have some protection standoff from the gelcoat.

A thought

[Noah]

Ron's Dremel idea will probably work too. Depends what kind of dentist you are. A Dremel can do lots of damage in a shaky hand.  I wouldn't try my bend and snap technique unless you have a washer already in place under the nuts. That should "protect" the headliner. You won't need to bend the bolt very far back and forth (just millimeters if stainless) before it snaps.

[2ndwish]

Had exactly the same problem with the acorn nuts on the chainplates. With those I had good access to both sides and nothing worked- impact drivers, pb blaster, heat - tried it all. Eventually I used an angle grinder with a metal cutoff wheel to cut up through the acorn nut (vertical cut). Excellent tool control. Made quick work of the job- less than a minute. Interestingly enough the nut got hot enough that it broke free before the cut was complete. I did take care to protect the headliner and chainplate. 

[KWKloeber]

Had exactly the same problem with the acorn nuts on the chainplates. With those I had good access to both sides and nothing worked- impact drivers, pb blaster, heat - tried it all. Eventually I used an angle grinder with a metal cutoff wheel to cut up through the acorn nut (vertical cut). Excellent tool control. Made quick work of the job- less than a minute. Interestingly enough the nut got hot enough that it broke free before the cut was complete. I did take care to protect the headliner and chainplate. 

2nd,

Great method - so simple, yet effective.  Kinda a forest/trees/KISS thing, 'eh?   

-Ken

[Roland Gendreau]

Thanks - the Dremel worked well.  I made 2 vertical cuts in the acorn nut 180 degrees apart and also sliced the bottom of the nut to connect the 2 cuts.  I made sure not to get too close to the ceiling.  I then inserted a thin screwdriver into the bottom of the nut, pried it open/apart and easily removed it. 

All of my teak is now in my garage, so I can start the stripping and refinishing over the winter.

[Noah]

Congrats!

[mregan]

I pulled off the handrails and re-finished this past winter.  A couple of the screws came loose when removing so I removed the bungs, inserted some epoxy under the head of the screw and re-installed.  Then installed new bungs and refinished the rails with the bungs in place.  I found it was easier to do it this way rather than install the rails then install the bungs.  If you are using Cetol it's a couple of coats each with the Natural and Gloss.  I didn't want to have to go to the boat 4-5 days in a row to put another coat on the bungs. 
When I went to re-install, the epoxy held the screws in place and I was able to tighten them from below with no problem.