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Author Topic: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly  (Read 5467 times)

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PK

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Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« on: August 31, 2012, 06:49:11 PM »

Here's a good one for everyone.  We are anchored in Tomales Bay right now and for some reason can not get our engine to start.  That's wgy we could use the advice quickly. 
It is the m35.  Symptoms are that it cranks fine, so we believe the batteries are not the issue.  When keynis turned to the glow plug position the alarm continues to beep.  Usually it only beeps when the key is in the "on" position but then stoppes while you are warming the glow plugs.  The fuel pump (i think) it is the little cyclinder thing on the back of the engine that normally clicks while you are glow plugging is not clicking during the glow plugging right now.  So maybe this is the issue?  i haveconfirmed power to it.  I have confirmed power out of the switch at the panel for both the fuel pump and the glow plug wires.  I have been UNABLE to confirm power to the glow plugs. I may not be doing it correctly?  I feel it is a glow plug issue.  Can you feel them get warm when they are hot?  What would be preventing them from getting power?  Are they connected to the fuel pump somehow, is this system interconnected?  Any help would be great especially quickly. :cry4`

Ps our phone number in 775-842-4523 if you want to call.  Thanks
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PK

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 08:05:10 AM »

Update on the below situation.  We used Ron's suggestion and when engaging the glow plugs looked for a couple of volt drop on the engine voltmeter.  This did not happen leading us to believe that the glow plugs are not getting power.  We found power behind the panel at the harness for the glow plug wire, but as stated belowmhave been unable to verify power at the engine side of things.  Will continue to try to trace where the gap is.  Also the fuel lift pump does not click when the key is turned to the glow plug postion as it should.  Have verified power at the fuel pump and can use a jumper to activate it and hear the clicking, so I am assuming it works, it just needs to be activated somehow.
Leads me to think there is something incommon between the glow plugs activating and the lift pump activating.  Possibly at the key switch, possibly a loose ground.  Would love to hear any thoughts on this one.  Thanks.
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 10:37:23 AM »

PK, in answer to your question, here's the link to previsous discussions, from the Critical Upgrades page:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829

You're right about the bypass.  If you don't have the engine manual on board, the links in this thread will get you back to a detailed discussion of how it all works and the wiring diarams, which are available on the website.

The particular wiring diagram discussion is in Reply #54 on page 4 of that linked topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works...

Armed with this detail, perhaps it will help you in your troubleshooting.  Good luck.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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PK

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 01:51:17 PM »

More updates.  Thanks to a call from Jim in Erie PA we looked at the oil sender unit since it sounds like it must be closed to allow the fuel pump to run.  By bypassing the oil sender (i just disconnected the oil sender wires and used a short jumper to connect them, bypassing the oil sender unit). We are able to get the fuel pump to activate when the key is turned to the on or glow plug position, just like it used to before all of this.  Upon cracking the bleed screw on the secondary fuel filter I get fuel squirting out with the fuel pump running.  So it looks like fuel is not the issue here.  Still unable to active the glow plugs.
If the engine were to start, would it be ok to run it for a short time without the oil sender unit? 
After reading Stu's link below, I'm still a little confused about how the wiring to the glow plugs proceeds.  I see it commong out of the switch at the control panel and have voltage there, and see it at the glow plugs, but do not have voltage there.  Can someone detail out where this wire goes for me or if there is a switch or solenoid that may have failed. 
I have air and fuel, so am thinking that the 60ish degree temps may be preventing me from turning over the engine.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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Ron Hill

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 02:00:15 PM »

PK : Let me give you  a few things to check.

Back by your fuel pump there is a 10 amp circuit breaker, check to make sure it is pushed IN.  
On your oil pressure switch (I believe it is on the port side of the engine) there are two spade connectors.  One spade has two wires - one from the alternator and the the other to the key switch. On the other spade of the oil pressure switch there is a single wire that goes to the fuel pump.  Make sure those wires are connected.

The way your system operates is when you turn on the key you should hear the NO oil pressure alarm  sound, when you turn the key to the glow plugs the plugs should heat and the fuel pump should start pumping.  Then the engine should start.  If for some reason you loose oil pressure, the oil pressure switch shut off the fuel pump and with most boats the engine will shut down from lack of fuel.
 
 [If you crank the engine long enough you will probably create enough oil pressure just by cranking!!  Be careful not to fill your muffler with raw sea water!!]

Hope this helps!!  Let me know as I've got to run.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 06:03:50 PM by Ron Hill »
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PK

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 03:10:42 PM »

Thanks Ron.  The circuit breaker is pushed in. 
The oil pressure swith is concerning me.  I have voltage between the spade connectors when diaconnected and testsed with the key in on position.  Yet when they are conmected to the oil pressure swith and the mey is turned to on it sounds the alarm and does not operate the fuel pump like it should.  If I bypass the oil pressure swith the fuelmpump works normally and the alarm does not sound.  The way the system used to work.  Basicslly if I bypass the oil pressure swith, the fuel pump operates correctly.  If the oil pressur switch is bypassed temporariliy with the emgine on will this cause a problem?
Second issue is at the solenoid just to the port of the fuel pump.  This is the solenoid I use a little jumper to activate the fuel pump to bleed the system without turning on the glow plugs.  It has voltage and when jumped or the oil pressure swithch is bassed it activates the fuel pump.  It also has the glow plug wire attached to it from the panel.  The glow plug wire is getting voltage at this solenoid when the key is turned to the glow plug position.  The glow plugs are not getting voltage though when the key is in this position.  Leading me to believe that this solenoid is faulty.
Is is possible that both these items went bad at the same time or is one effecting the other somehow?
If they are in fact both faulty, can i bypass them to start the engine?
My current plan is to bypass the oil pressure sensor and take the glow plug wire off the solenoid and attach ot directly to the first glow plug. 
As always thanks and any input is helpful
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 03:13:07 PM »

 
After reading Stu's link below, I'm still a little confused about how the wiring to the glow plugs proceeds.  I see it commong out of the switch at the control panel and have voltage there, and see it at the glow plugs, but do not have voltage there.  Can someone detail out where this wire goes for me or if there is a switch or solenoid that may have failed.  
I have air and fuel, so am thinking that the 60ish degree temps may be preventing me from turning over the engine.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

PK, it sure sounds like you're not getting power to the glow plugs.  However, you should only be getting power there with the key in the glow plug position, right?  Am I correct that what you mean is that you're not getting power when the key switch is in the glow plug position?

If so, you might want to consider just providing power to the glow plugs with a separate wire from the house bank to get your engine going, and figure the rest out when you get home.

From one of those links to the old long thread:

    
Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Reply #49 on: June 25, 2007, 04:14:55 PM
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Michael,

The manual I was using is the one on this website, http://www.c34ia.org/manuals/Operators-Manual-2of2.pdf .  The same wiring diagram 200360 is on page 25 and schematic 200360 is on page 26 (pages 5 and 6 of the pdf).  The schematic shows the "S" and "I" terminal, "I" being the one that is connected to switch contacts when the relay is energized.  If you connected the fourth terminal of the 24059 relay to the resistor and circuit breaker you would probably not energize the relay thus not providing power to the glow plugs and the fuel pump would likely only start running after you were able to obtain oil pressure.  Starting would be intermittent, at best.  

Added later:  These two diagrams ARE different, so for those of you reading this thread, please, please, please read the entire referenced link, because it DOES make a difference.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 05:38:16 PM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2012, 03:15:18 PM »

I posted this last one before your last post came up.  I think the bypass idea to provide power to the glow plugs is your best choice to get your engine going.  Could you not reconnect everything normally once it get started and see what happens?

It appears that you understand the system and the wiring and also the difference between those two referenced wiring diagrams.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 03:16:22 PM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

PK

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 03:56:46 PM »

Update, it appears that bypassing the oil presure switch, removing the glow plug wire from the solenoid and jumping it directly to the first glow plug has worked! :clap :clap
By bypassing all of the safety systems on the engine we got it to work.
Question, by bypassing the oilmpressure switch will we have a problem?  Obviously this will need to be replaced ASAP, but is this switch necessary to keep oil moving thru the system? 
Secondly, is it really possible that both the oil pressure sensor and the fuel filter solenoid went bad on the same day?
Thanks for the input, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel after two days at anchor working on this problem.
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 04:22:19 PM »

The oil pressure switch is only for LOW oil pressure.  It does not affect oil moving in the engine.

Sure, dontcha know bad things always come in threes?  Get another one out of the way right now, and you'll be fine.  :D

Now that you are back in business, you might want to consider the simplification that I discussed in that link.

Hope you've finally seen the sun up there, it's just beautiful, isn't it?

Safe journey over the bar and home, look forward to seeing you on the estuary soon.

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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Ron Hill

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2012, 06:02:16 PM »

PK : The oil pressure switch is only a switch that warns of low oil pressure, so by passing it does no harm to the engine!!  The oil pump is basically two mechanical gears that mesh together and move oil from the pan.  

I should have told you to disconnect the two female spade connectors to the oil pressure switch and mated them together.  Then when the key switch was ON, you would have the glow plugs, the fuel pump would operate and the only thing missing would have been low oil pressure warning.

Unless you have a multi meter to check the amperage, the other best way to check the glow plug solenoid is to put a 12V light across the two terminal and when the glow plugs are engaged does the light light up?

I'd check each system individually, but I believe that your oil pressure switch is the problem.

Now everyone reading these posts might understand why I took that beautiful Westerbeke wiring harness off the NEW engine and wired it all back very simply to match the boats wiring.
ie. Oil pressure to buzzer & light (single contact oil pressure switch)/ glow plugs to spring position of glow plugs / fuel pump directly to key switch.
  
That old fart just may know what he's doing!!  A few thoughts


« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 01:48:01 PM by Ron Hill »
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 06:21:45 PM »

What's a frat?   :shock:
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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tonywright

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 06:01:44 AM »

I think it is a person without a spell checker.
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Tony Wright
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Ron Hill

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 02:00:32 PM »

Guys : I'm afraid a spell checker would not have helped.  Maybe just rereading a writeup before posting it is the solution.  Also being a two finger typist, I don't look at the screen while the words are coming up!!

It also ticks me off that Microsoft gouges you for MS Word & Office programs that will not do zip with MS Explorer!?!  AND that we had it for this site, but it went the way of the dinosaurs.

However a spellchek would be nice (that was done on purpose!!)   :(
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:07:23 PM by Ron Hill »
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PK

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Re: Engine will not start, could use advice quickly
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 11:36:51 AM »

I wanted to give an update and say thanks to everyone for all your help on this one.  Our bypass of the oil pressure switch and the fuel pump solenoid for the glow plugs seems to be working.  We have started the engine multiple times now and it fired up better than ever.  Makes me wonder if something was failing over a period of time and the two things together brought it to light?  Sorry about the spelling and grammar previously, I didn't want to tempt the internet gods by trying spell check as the internet coverage in Tomales Bay was very spotty.  I was just happy to get the replies sent.  We made it over the bar yesterday afternoon, into thick fog, but did make it to Bodega Bay for the night.  Now it's time to source some parts to replace the oil pressure switch and the fuel pump solenoid.  I really appreciate the support and help.  It is nice knowing there is some help out there when you are in a bay that has no dock you could even sail up to if you wanted to, the exit bar would be sketchy on a good day under sail, and any help was four days out due to the holiday.

Stu:  Thanks for the help.  It may be a while until we are back in the estuary as we have left Grand Marina to spend the next year traveling aboard.  That being said it makes these fixes all that more complicated in transit and the help ever more valuable.  You can follow us here if you like. 

http://pksadventures.blogspot.com/

Thanks to everyone again. :D
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