engine not starting....

[Ron Hill]

RonE : You can run the engine with the bleed valve full open (makes the electric lift pump work like hell), but I'd close it all the way and then open it about a 1/4 turn.

From what you just posted, it sounds as though everything is open and you have fuel to the injection pump.  Now you need to crank the engine over (shut the thru hull) and as the engine is cranking see if fuel is coming out of a loosened injector fuel input tube on the top of the injector.  No fuel means there is a problem with the injection pump.
Clogged injectors - possible, but all 3 clogged improbable.

I have you telephone # and I'll call you tomorrow. 

[RonE]

Thanks Ron,
I will be down by the boat by 930..
Ron

[Ken Juul]

I have a dockmate with a new to him C36.  He too was having starting problems.  After a couple hours of tightening clamps, checking for air leaks, blocked pick up tube, etc we still could not get fuel to flow.  Turned out the electric fuel pump was bad.  It was clicking as fast as it could but not pumping any fuel. His fuel system arrangement has everything below the engine...without the electric pump, the engine won't get fuel.

[RonE]

Mary Gee is back....
It was a frustrating week not being able to sail, but it was a week that I learned a great deal about
my universal M25XP.
Thanks for all those suggestions, and thanks for the phone conversations from one of Catalina's experts, Ron Hill.
After waiting for a diesel mechanic all week, I and my fellow dock buddies focused on a fuel or air pocket issue.
I did remove the fuel injector pump, when about 5 of us thought the fuel flow was minimal.
The mechanic as East Coast Diesel Services in Lynbrook drilled me saying that 90% of the time people come in with kiki injector pumps the problem was something else, usually an air lock.
Sure enough by the end of the day Derrick said the pump was fine, No Charge and some advice, not bad..
Crank repeatively until you get fuel to the injectors, he said...
I reattached everything I removed the day before, starting with the Injection pump, side panel, glo plug, manifold, injector bleeder valve, and all the connecting hoses and tubes.
As Derrick suggested I cranked in ten second intervals until I had a good fuel flow just before the injectors.
I know a lot of folks ain't going to want to hear this last part, but the diesel mechanic I was waiting for the last few days, called and suggested shooting some starter fluid into (towards) the air intake. None of us wanted to do it but he said that once you had the engine running it would clear out the air locks.
My buddy sprayed indirectly some two feet away has I cranked and she turned over. What a sound, half hour later we had a nice sail and motor back to the dock..
Ron

[RV61]

Glad to hear your back up and running!!! Thanks for sharing starter fluid tip!
enjoy!!

[Jim Hardesty]

A warning about using starting fluid (either) .   Once you use it keep working till the motor is running.  The starting fluid will wash off the cylinder wall and may cause other problems.  I would use only as a last resort.
I've never used it, but somewhere in the back of my mind I remember WD40 being recomended to start and run diesels for short times.  Has anyone used it?
Great that your engine is running.   Hate to say it butt, I would have less than 100% confidence.  You may have a small leak that allows air into the system when the engine isn't running.  If thats the case you may have to use the starting fluid till you find the leak.
Jim

[Stu Jackson]

I have replaced The secondary filter, and bleed the system properly a number of
Times. 

Ron, glad to hear you got started, although I agree with Jim and others that that way may not address the root causes of your issue.

I went back and read this thread and there's lots of good information, including the texts and the references.  You might want to consider that part of your issue might have been replacing the secondary filter, unless you were sure that you got all the air out by removing or at least backing off the nut on the top of the filter housing.

If it was my boat, I'd find out what the cause was before ever using starting fluid again.

Good luck, glad you're back and thanks for the update.

[Ron Hill]

Ron : I'm glad that you got the engine running and had the injection pump checked and found it OK.

I hope you also changed out your leaking bleed valve.  With that knerled knob open fuel should not come out thru the knob shaft!!  That leaky bleed valve surely helped contribute to the inability to bleed all the air out of your fuel system.

For those of you that like to replace a fuel filters without filling the filter with diesel first - let this be a #1  lesson!!
It has always baffeled me as to why anyone would knowingly introduce air into a diesel fuel line; when it's so simple to just fill the new filter with fuel!??!

#2 lesson is NOT to change BOTH fuel filters at the same time.  Change one, bleed the line, run the engine, then change the other filter, bleed the line/bleed bolt and then run the engine again!!

Also like Stu mentioned, if you change the engine mounted fuel filter you MUST open the hex bleed bolt on the top of the filter until fuel flow out - then close it.

NOT a good idea to use starting fuel ether.  It has a much lower flash point than diesel and will ignite while the piston is still coming up!!  

A few thoughts

[Stu Jackson]

That was a really nice thing Ron did, to help Ron out on the phone.  Above & beyond.  Thanks from all of us.

Ron (in Brooklyn    I grew up in Queens  ),

Aha!  You didn't tell us about the leaking knurled knob.  Kinda useful information...

Good luck in the repairs and listen to what Ron says.  He REALLY knows what he's talkin' about.  

I put in a fuel pump shutoff toggle switch in our engine space for bleeding the secondary fuel filter.  Singlehanded, it stops the fuel flow when you have diesel comin' out of the filter bracket hole from which you have gingerly removed the small bolt, which you hope you don't drop.  IIRC, Ron uses his 1-2-B switch to avoid having to go into the cockpit to turn the fuel pump off.

[RonE]

Hey Catalina crew,
Yes the fuel injector pump bleed valve,
It turns out it wasn't so much the valve that leaked but the loose packing nut below it.
Once I tighten it, which was an hour or so before she started, the well below the block was dry.
I agree whole heartedly that starting fluid isnt a cure all.
And it was the great Nigel, who said to use WD40, instead of starting fluid...
If I have any other starter issues, I will keep you posted..
C U on the water,
Ron

[Ron Hill]

Guys : This should be a plumbing lesson for everyone!!

When a gate valve starts leaking (when opened) the first item to check is the what I call the "gland nut".  Whether it be the main water cutoff in your home or the bleed valve on your diesel engine, this gland nut is the first thing to be checked/tighten to try to stop the leak.  

I guess that I didn't make myself clear when I said, "Check to see if the gland nut needs tightening".  If you overtighten that nut it will stop the leak, but also make it very hard to close that gate valve!!

A thought

[RonE]

The REAL ISSUE......
Well that quick fix (STARTER FLUID) lasted all of an hour or so.
Went down this afternoon, about 40 hrs or so after infamous shot of SF, to go sailing with the wife, and the diesel didnt turn over. Same sh*t...
My first mate rolled her eyes, and said again.....
Anyway, went over the whole bleeding thing again, got fuel coming into the injectors..fine.
Then I went over all the forum notes, and read thru my other documents.
Later, one of my buddies came by, after he had a nice sail, and we brain stormed..
He brought up the grounding issue, he was bothered by the fact that when you turned the key the volt meter guage didn't register, and when we had it started the other afternoon it fluctuated. We pulled out the schematics in the manual and I checked point to point. Laying in the Lazerette with a flashlight I looked behind the panel and noticed a forked terminal connector hanging in the wind, it was broken with occasionally hitting its broken off piece still on the back of the volt meter guage. We pulled off the panel, and replaced the fork terminal, which was a ground for not only the feed for the volt meter but the Glo plug as well.
I reattached the panel, turned the key and Volt Meter Guage light up.
She then turned over beautifully.... Holy Sh...t ..
I guess I was to hungup on a fuel flow or air pocket, that I didnt look at other obvious signs of trouble!!
A few on the forum suggested a ground issue, well you were right... Thanks again, Ron

[Stu Jackson]

Good for you.  Patience, patience, patience, step-by-step.  It's a sailboat, even though it was your motor that had issues.

[RV61]

Nice Job on finding the new culprit!! I found the bright side  of solving boat issues is how much I learn about the systems so the next time something fails I can figure out quickly what  what steps to take to find the cause. Also learning about what maintence needs to be done to prevent future failures. Time to go sailing and enjoy!!
Rick

[Ron Hill]

RonE : So the readers of your post can better understand how you solved the glow plug wiring problem, let us know if you have a separate glow plug switch next to the starter switch (like the 1986/1987 C34s) or the glow plug switch in the spring loaded position of the key switch like the later 1988s and subsequent - because the engine instrument panel wiring is different.   

When you get a chance you might want to add the glow plug modification to your "to do" list.

A thought