Ground Buss Bar

Ralph Masters · September 09, 2011, 04:17:17 PM

Stu, Ron,
Behind the power panel and the 1-2-B switch is a Ground Bus Bar, mine is not glued to the bulkhead any longer but hanging by duct tape. Does this Ground Bus Bar have a ground wire back to the engine block??
The reason for asking is I have a #4 black going from my battery negative to the engine block. But with it hooked up no lights.
There is a #10 black that goes up under the flooring toward the back of the panel, if I unhook it no lights, hook it to the battery lights.
Shouldn't the lighting Ground Bus Bar be something a little bigger then a #10??
Is the #4 ground to engine block for the starter only??

Any ideas would be appreciated,

Ralph
Ciao Bella

Stu Jackson · September 09, 2011, 06:14:00 PM

Ralph, yes, that relatively seemingly small #10 is what I have on my boat. I recall Ron mentioning that he has improved his. Mine originally went to the (PO installed) reserve bank but I installed a negative distribution post with a Power Post Plus just forward of the battery box next to the water heater, and then I installed by Link 2000 shunt. I never did increase the (-) to the distribution panel. Wouldn't be a bad I idea to do so. Just glue the terminal strip back on the hull.

The #4 black is your main ground wire from the battery box back to the ground connection on the rear end of the engine, port side near the bell housing - the one we keep telling folks to check in the Critical Upgrades. It goes nowhere near the starter. The starter should have a red + #4 from the C post of the 1-2-B switch.

Ron Hill · September 09, 2011, 06:32:29 PM

Ralph : Right now I'm on the boat and my 1988 may have a slightly differant set up. My DC wiring for your 1987 is at home.

I have a DC buss bar attached to the upper inside of my panel face with 2 screws. Yes, there is/should be a #4 gnd wire going to the engine block from the batteries. I wouldn't think the lighting gnd wire need only be a #12.

Sounds like you have broken wire or a disconnected light circuit gnd.

I'll get back with you when I get back home on Sunday.

Ralph Masters · September 09, 2011, 10:14:13 PM

Stu, Ron,
thanks a million, I know if I have a problem I can count on you for the information I need. I'll not worry too much about it then.
I just added a third battery to make one bank of two and a reserve/back up and was awe struck whne I figured out that one little wire back is what the lights ran on.
My new charger should be in next week, see what other surprises are in store.

Ralph

Ralph Masters · September 09, 2011, 10:23:03 PM

As soon as I have the last pieces of the upgrade I'm working on I'll send in a wire diagram. I'm trying to keep it simple as possible but allow us to Spend several days away. The new batteries have a total of 285 AH supply. Need to get my good reading glasses out to read the name plate data on the alt. and check it with the digital volt meter for out put.

Stu Jackson · September 10, 2011, 07:14:21 AM

AWESTRUCK?

Aha, boatspeak for astounded? Maybe not so much.

Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when refrigeration was an option, iceboxes were the norm, and the biggest electrical draw on a boat's distribution panel was the lights! Remember, the #4 wire to the starter and back from the alternator output to the C post of the 1-2-B switch and to and from the battery box carried the largest current ONLY for starting and the AO (based on the OEM wiring), not the small positive wire to the distribution panel and that small #10 ground wire back from the panel to the battery negatives to engine ground.

Even these days, with a fridge installed, it would take sailing at night with running lights on, some interior lights and the fridge all on at the same time to get the actual distribution panel D.C. load much above 10 A.

So, don't compare the #4 positive wire to the #10 ground wire and cringe. It is simply NOT that much of an issue, if one at all. I haven't done a voltage drop calculation on it, but mine's been working since we bought the boat in 1998, and most likely since 1986 when they built her.

Hi ho Silver, away...

Mark Elkin · September 10, 2011, 10:24:02 AM

By the time I bought Yorkshire Rose (11 years ago now), the PO had added a 3rd house battery and had installed a second 1-2-B switch in the side of the battery box settee. See the diagram below. And see the picture of the DC panel rear to help understand the diagram, especially the "DC Ground Buss Bar", i.e. 2 of the 4 parts of the terminal strip in the picture.
Yes, there was:
a red #4 wire from each battery to the 1-2-B switches,
a red #4 from "C" post of the DC panel 1-2-B switch to the starter solenoid,
a black #4 from engine block to the battery common, and
a black #10 wire from DC panel "ground" terminal strip to battery common.

When I finally replaced the (original) electrical panel, I moved all grounds to a separate, real buss bar. That buss bar is attached to the hull as follows:
Glued a scrap piece of wood to the hull using 5200.
When 5200 cured (next day), screwed the buss bar to the wood.

BTW, I've also upgraded much more of the DC electrical system, including using fat (#1) wires and put in a separate starter battery. I'm in the process of writing an "upgrades history" which I will post to the projects wiki soon. But as Stu mentions, he is still using the original #10 and #4 wires and wiring successfully.

Mark Elkin · September 10, 2011, 10:27:38 AM

BTW Ralph,
Since you are in San Diego and I'm in Oceanside, we are essentially neighbors. If you would like to see my wiring changes first hand, let me know.
Mark

Stu Jackson · September 10, 2011, 11:21:52 AM

Ralph, Mark's wiring diagram is here, scroll to the bottom: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-electrical-system-upgrade-3.html

Mark Elkin · September 10, 2011, 02:08:14 PM

That same Project page is available on our Tech Wiki as well:
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical_System_Upgrade_-_Yorkshire_Rose

Ralph Masters · September 10, 2011, 08:37:31 PM

Mark,
Thanks for the info and photo. I was thinking of sticking that bus bar back on the bulkhead using 5200 but did not want to say the word, 5200 Stu cringes when he reads about some one using that stuff
I really do think as long as it is working fine that way it is, and has been for some time, I'll leave it be.
I am going to run a new wire from alt out put to the house bank for direct charge when the engine is running.
And when I install the new charger it'll have it's own ground going to the battery also.

Ralph
Ciao Bella

PS it was a great day in San Diego on the water today, the wind was about 10 out of the SW, went from the National City marina to Tom Hamm's light house with out tacking, did a come about and all the way back on same tack, about 17 - 20 miles in all, changed the head sail once. Had to reset the traveler to pinch up a bit on the last 4 miles but life was good.

Ron Hill · September 11, 2011, 12:25:10 PM

Ralph : There is nothing wrong with drilling a couple of holes through the face of the main electrical panel and mounting the DC buss bar back in it's old position. Watch where you are drilling in to the buss bar. Just use 2 short sheet metal screws with finishing washers !! It'll look like Catalina did it!!

Stu mentioned that I ran some extra grounds which is correct as I too didn't like only the # 10 wire and the #4 wire going to the block(bell housing).
Here what I did - I ran a #4 wire black from my alternator case and two #4 red wires (duel output) directly from the alternator to the the batteries. Later I also ran #8 black wire from the batteries to one of the terminals on that DC buss bar!! I used marine grade wire and again all connections are soldered with Ancor heat shrink.
I encased those three #4 wires in thick 1" clear hose as they are not tied up (because I couldn't get in there under the flooring to tie them up).

A few ideas, because in my experience it's the grounds that give you the problems. Good luck.

Ralph Masters · September 11, 2011, 08:18:55 PM

Ron,
Thanks for the note, I like what you did with the extra ground wires. I'll do something similar. I am running a direct wire from Alt to house bank and I'll add a ground from Alt too.

Another great day on the water. We sat about 50 yards off the upwind mark in SD bay and watched the races for a while. I was cautious not to put us in a spot that would put a wind shadow on the mark, we were north of the mark with a west wind. Looked to be a bout three different classes out, and the action at the upwind mark was great. Beat the hell out of sitting home watching football.

Ralph
Ciao Bella