Xantrex system help

[Kevin Henderson]

Background:

Battery Bank #1 – 4 Lifeline AGM Batteries 6 volt in series parallel
Battery Bank #2 – 1 Lifeline AGM battery 12 volt
Xantrex Pathmaker
Xantrex True charge 20+ Battery Charger
Xantrex Link 20 Battery Monitor
Xantrex True charge Remote display

I feel I may be over my head on this one and may have to resort to finding a good marine electrical guy here in SD.  The PO installed what I believe to be a magnificent upgrade to the standard electrical system with a lot of quality products.  I have been trying to understand what is going on but to no avail.  Over time I have noticed the battery monitor status for Battery 1 to slowly go down in status to the point now where I have a flashing red indicator that warns of a dangerously low charge on the battery bank.  (battery 2 – the starter battery has remained green since I bought Pau hana and has shown no change).  I have researched the threads for a clue and have poured over my owners manuals and on line.  I have checked the four fuses (all good).  Does anyone have any idea on what else I May need to be looking for?  If I cant get results, my next option is to find an electrician.  Please help.

[Kevin Henderson]

BTW... I have considered the possibility of a bad solonoid on the Pathmaker system but I'm uncertain on a method of troubleshooting.   Dunno if that's the problem but something else I have considered.

[n624ma]

Kevin,
Nice setup!

A few questions to help get a handle on the problem:
How old is the house bank?
How long does it take to get the flashing light indication and under what load?
What is the indicated charge voltage on the house bank on shore power?

[Ken Juul]

With everything turned off, including the battery master, what does the Link read for amps being used.  If it is more than -0.01 or -0.02 you have something draining the batteries.  If it reads 0, I would suspect the batteries.  Fully charge and take to an auto parts store or place that sells batteries (Sam's/Costco/Walmart, etc), ask them for conduct a load/condition check.  They will usually do one for free.  Obviously if you have a drain, need to find it!

[Stu Jackson]

Kevin, given all that gear, the piece of the puzzle that is truly lacking is "How is it wired?"

Does the alternator output go to the C post of the 1-2-B switch?  Or does it go to the house bank?  Is it wired directly to the house bank or to the post(s) on the back of the switch?  Different end of same wire, maybe...

Oh, no, just noticed your Blue Seas switch arrangement...

With a Pathmaker (which is a combiner), one would suppose that the AO goes to the house bank, but I've seen some strange installations by "POs."

One can throw a whole bunch of hardware onto a boat, but if it's not wired properly, strange things result.

Please describe how it's wired, and we can continue.

Since you also have AGMs, you should read this (recently added to "Electrical 101")  http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114054

BTW... I have considered the possibility of a bad solonoid on the Pathmaker system but I'm uncertain on a method of troubleshooting.   Dunno if that's the problem but something else I have considered.

Just put the switch on B.  Wait, I just noticed, you can't, 'cuz you have one of those Blue Seas things.  But if you combine the banks, that's what a Pathfinder does, so switch the battery switch to combine and tell us what happens.  This will determine if the Pathfinder has an issue, which you could do with a simple DVM, too.

[Stu Jackson]

Kevin,  a couple of other thoughts:

1.  The Pathmaker should end up sending current to your reserve bank, so the house bank should get the charge with the Pathmaker relay closing when charging is present.  Something sounds backwards.

2.  Have you sync'ed your Link?  Do you have the manual?  

3.  Have you read the "Gotcha" Algorithm topic?  (If not, go to "Electrical 101" for the link to it.)

4.  What voltages are you reading from the charger to the banks?  On shorepower.  On alternator?

5.  Have you sketched out a basic as-you-understand-it wiring diagram?

6.  Your photo shows the house bank on, the engine bank on and the "emergency" parallel (cross connect) switch on, too.  Why?  By doing that you are kinda bypassing the Pathmaker and could making the relay inside it jump.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : If your True Charge 20 is mounted horizontally - that is wrong! 
I talked to Zantrex on that type mounting.  They said the unit would not properly cool.  It does not have a blower motor and cools by convection in the vertical position.  A thought

[Kevin Henderson]

Fantastic!!  I have my homework assignments for the coming weekend and will report back my findings.
Stu - I am very interested in your comment #6 considering the switch settings.  That is something that has always bugged me.  Could you please explain in more detail what you see should be a correct configuration?

[Ken Juul]

I'm sure Stu is will provide a more complete answer, but basically he is saying the cross connect switch circled in red is doing the same thing the Pathmaker is trying to do....connecting the two banks together.  With the cross connect on, there is a direct connection.  The pathmaker may sense what is going on, but has no way of controlling the current flow.

[Ralph Masters]

Kevin,
From an HT's stand point sounds like the framis is bad and you need to replace the thermovacuubifoggle tube with set screw attachment.  And check the muffler bearing too.

Hope you get it figured out,

Ralph
Ciao Bella

[tonywright]

Kevin : If your True Charge 20 is mounted horizontally - that is wrong! 
I talked to Zantrex on that type mounting.  They said the unit would not properly cool.  It does not have a blower motor and cools by convection in the vertical position.  A thought

I think that it needs a drip shield above it as well?

Tony

[Ron Hill]

Tony : Forget about the drip shield as we can't tell where it is mounted.
 
Besides it will over heat and destroy itself if it is really mounted horizontally!!

[Kevin Henderson]

A quick update to answer a couple questions.  I had a chance to swing down to the boat this afternoon long enough to look at a couple things and answer some questions:

1.  The batteries are approximately 5 years old.
2.  When I bought pau Hana, the battery monitor for bank #2 read all Green.  It has taken a year for the charge to slowly deteriorate to this point.
3.  The indicated charge coltage on the bank while hooked up to shore power is 12.90 volts
4.  I isolated and shut down all loads on the boat today and disconnected shore power, shut off battery charger and shut off refrigerator.  The link monitor read -00.1 ( I believe that indicates no drain on the batteries)
5.  Finally upon a couple recommended observations, I threw the cross connect switch over to 'OFF'.  I observed as I did this that the indicated voltage rose to 13.80.
I am hoping that upon Stu's observation that this may allow the pathmaker to do its job and begin a charge on the house bank #1.  I wanted to be able to perform the switch change today to see if there is a change by this  weekend.
6.  Ron,  I looked through the Xantrex installation instructions:  Table 2.1 does not state that it needs to be installed in a vertical orientation... it mainly talks about ventilation.  However, on page 2.8 of the owners manual it talks about mounting on a vertical surface but thats all.  Unfortunately the Truecharge 20 was already installed when I bought Pau Hana, and while it is not completely on a vertical surface it is siting at about a 45 degree angle laying down horizontally. 

I will check to see if any changes occur over what was done today.  I am hoping it is my own stupidity on switch settings and nothing more severe.  If there are more suggestions, I'm all ears.   

[Ken Juul]

Battery life depends on how they are used/abused.  Most car batteries have a 3-5 year life.  It sounds like you have been undercharging them which is not good for long life.  I recommend that you get the batteries fully charged and tested.  Without knowing the condition of the batteries, you may just be chasing you tail looking for a solution. 

[Stu Jackson]

1.  The batteries are approximately 5 years old.
2.  When I bought pau Hana, the battery monitor for bank #2 read all Green.  It has taken a year for the charge to slowly deteriorate to this point.
3.  The indicated charge coltage on the bank while hooked up to shore power is 12.90 volts
4.  I isolated and shut down all loads on the boat today and disconnected shore power, shut off battery charger and shut off refrigerator.  The link monitor read -00.1 ( I believe that indicates no drain on the batteries)
5.  Finally upon a couple recommended observations, I threw the cross connect switch over to 'OFF'.  I observed as I did this that the indicated voltage rose to 13.80.
I am hoping that upon Stu's observation that this may allow the pathmaker to do its job and begin a charge on the house bank #1.  I wanted to be able to perform the switch change today to see if there is a change by this  weekend.
6.  Ron,  I looked through the Xantrex installation instructions:  Table 2.1 does not state that it needs to be installed in a vertical orientation... it mainly talks about ventilation.  However, on page 2.8 of the owners manual it talks about mounting on a vertical surface but thats all.  Unfortunately the Truecharge 20 was already installed when I bought Pau Hana, and while it is not completely on a vertical surface it is siting at about a 45 degree angle laying down horizontally.  

I will check to see if any changes occur over what was done today.  I am hoping it is my own stupidity on switch settings and nothing more severe.  If there are more suggestions, I'm all ears.  

1.  Ken is right.  However, try reading and doing "Breaking in New Batteries."  There may be hope for you yet.  
2. & 5.  You've been running with what I call the "stupid" Blue Seas panel switch in the WRONG position.  I think you've figured it out now.
3. & 4.  See 2 & 5 above.  Funny how things start to work when you get the switch positions right.
6.  Pretty much "no comment."  I don't have one, but understand they can take some abuse.  And here I thought it was laying sideways only because of the way the picture came out on the screen!