Difficult Raising Main Halyard

[Clay Greene]

I won't address the issue about replacing the masthead sheaves with the stick up because we did ours with the mast down, one small benefit of being on the hard for six months of the year.  However, I will say that you need to have realistic expectations about how much improvement you can expect no matter what you do.  We have replaced the masthead sheaves, the mast collar turning blocks and the deck organizer sheaves with the Garhauer ball bearing models.  We also installed a Tides Marine track system.  With all that time and money, and all the promises from the various manufacturers that "this" would result in an easy to raise and drop sail, we still need to use the winch for the last foot or so and the sail still does not come down all the way.  As someone said earlier, too many turns and too much friction from the top of the mast back to the winch.  That is pretty obvious if you raise the sail by pulling on the halyard where it exits the mast - I would guess that it is half as much effort as trying to haul it up hand over hand from the cockpit. 

[Roc]

My local sail loft says the Strong track system is very good.

http://www.sailcare.com/strong-sail-track.shtml

[Mike and Joanne Stimmler]

Kevin,
I'd be very interested to hear the rigger's (Casey)opinion about using the ball bearing V/S the standard sheaves. Lets face it, most of probably still have the original sheaves that are twenty something years old and are still working. As nice as it might be to have ball bearing sheaves, if you have to replace them in 3 to 5 years, is it really worth it?

I hadn't thought about this until it was brought up on this board, but it's a very good point and I'm still curious if it can really be done with the mast up.

Mike

[Tom Soko]

Mike,
I'm not a professional rigger, but I changed the sheaves on my C36 about 10 years ago.  When I sold it last year, the sheaves were working as well as they had the day they were installed.  Not sure what kind of sheaves the J-Boat used, but Garhauer makes some pretty decent stuff that lasts a long time. 
I also installed the Strong Track system.  It does everything they say it does.  If you are not careful, when you let go of the main halyard, it will cut a groove in the teak at the aft end of the cabin top.  The sail comes FLYING down.  Still need a winch for the last foot or two, even with all BB sheaves, deck organizers, and the Strong Track system.  Nature of the beast, I guess.

[waterdog]

Tom's experience is a better data point on the life of BB sheaves in our application!

The J-Boat only alerted me to the ultimate failure mechanism.  That was a 48 foot boat on its fourth circumnavigation - vastly different block design, environment, load profile, and duty cycle than masthead sheaves on a typical c34.

[waterdog]

One more thought on the sheaves - go ball bearing.   It's a non issue.

For the truly paranoid.  The sheaves are protected from UV and salt spray etc.   Failure is going to be related to load and use.  You have 4 sheaves.   Two main and two jib.  If a main fails after ten years.  Switch to the other and go another ten years.

For the ultra paranoid.   Go half bushing, half bearing.  Then if there is time based failure, you'll still have good bushing based back ups. 

It's really not a big deal.  If they were going to die in 3 to 5 years in this application, Garhauer would know it and wouldn't sell them.   

Sorry for the paranoia propogation!

[David Urscheler]

I'm looking forward to installing my ball bearing sheaves. Right now, I have to use the winch once my full batten main is just past the half-way mark! Winching just the last couple feet would be a vast improvement.

[Kevin Henderson]

Had to postpone the appointment with my rigger today.  We've actually got real weather here in San Diego and it's raining and blowing pretty bad outside today.  I did however, go down to the boat to ensure everything was snug and dry (it was)  so I figured while I was there I would look a little closer at some of the elements of my running rigging for the Main.  I took a couple of cursory tugs on the halyard from the bottom of the mast with some slack in the line to pull only through the sheaves at the top of the mast.  Really... my impression was that the halyard did not seem to have any binding or restriction.  I then looked at and tested the Garhauer ball bearing blocks at the bottom of the mast.  Again they seem to move freely and no binding.  Then came the organizer.  I am now very cognizant of the sharp 90 degree bend the line takes at this point and I also noticed that I have Schafer triple sheave organizers... The sheaves appear to be plastic and I assume are not BB.
I rescheduled the appointment with the rigger for next Wednesday to have him take a more thourough look over everything, but for now I think I could probably help things with a couple new deck organizers.  I'll add that project to the list of dryer weather projects at a later date.
In the meantime, it's time for us "weather wimps" here in san Diego to hunker down and batten down the hatches for our next storm.  At least it's not 2 degrees and snowing outside 

[Kevin Henderson]

Snooping around online at various sights and ran accross an interesting tidbit of information regarding deck organizers from the Harken website.  It states:
"Remember the load on the sheave is a factor of the load on the line, plus a factor determined by the angle of deflection - a sheave that turns a line 30 degrees sees only 52% of the load, while a sheave that turns a line 90 degrees sees 141% of the load".

Given that nugget of info it is no wonder that the later designs of the C34 moved the deck organizers a bit aft to eliminate the 90 degree turn from the mast back to the cockpit.
"The plot thickens" 

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : Back in the mid-1990s, Dave Davis did a similar test by eliminating the turning blocks and came to same conclusion as Harkin. I believe that Dave published his data in ft. lbs. of pull rather than %, but the conclusion was the same.

Hard to believe that anyone would even consider anything else but Ball Bearing sheaves when thinking of decreasing the effort of pull.  I believe I've changed all but maybe 2 sheaves on my C34, that are the originals (non BB). 

[Stu Jackson]

Kevin, you may be interested in Dave Davis' posts:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3811.0.html

and

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1019.0.html

My experience, like others since 1986, is that the last two feet needs the winch.  On a "good day"    I can raise the main from the cockpit, but many times we'll do it from the mast.  We were fortunate enough to have the PO install Harken Batt-cars.  Drops like a rock, goes up pretty smoothly, although requires regular lubrication with Sailkote.  I recall other discussions about the alternate systems, try a search, that's how I got these two topics.

[Kevin Henderson]

I promised everyone a follow up on my concern over the difficult Main Halyard. 
Upon Mike's advice I made an appointment with Casey of KC Performance rigging here in San Diego.  Having to postpone the appointments for a rigging inspection 3 times due the torrential rain we have experienced, I finally had a Chance to get my inspection completed yesterday. 
Fritz Richardson, who now works with KC performance rigging and a veteran of 30 years of experience as a rigger arrived at my boat and performed the inspection.
First the good news.  I do not have any Mast head sheaves frozen.  Fritz was able to confirm what I had known to be true that in fact all the standing rigging on Pau Hana had been replaced and upgraded in 2006.... what a relief 
Now the burning question.... Can the masthead sheaves be replaced with the stick still in the air????? 
The short answer is YES!  However, like most things... this task can be accomplished for a price.  Fritz had explained the process of having to rig temporay stays and the hours and effort involved to do so (roughly 20 hours labor) At this rate he estimated it could be done dockside for $2000-$2500.  To have a crane at the boatyard pull the stick and perform the work would probably run $1000-$1500.
Essentially, the Mast must be brought down to change the masthead sheaves unless $$$$ is no object.

As for the difficulty I have been having in raising the Main?  It really boils down to the sailplan on the earlier C34's. 
The swivel blocks at the base of the mast cause a turn in the Halyard (90 degrees = resistance)
The deck organizer turns the halyard another 90 degrees (more Resistance)
The fairleads through the traveller are not a straight run and finally the halyard running through the clutches.  All this turns into a buildup of Resistance.
In the end, it will probably be easier for us to raise the Main directly from the base of the mast.
(Of note... I do intend to upgrade the deck organizers to the garhaur ball bearing organizers.... this should help considerably.

On another thread I'll tell the story of my mystery Rolling Furler issue.

[Mike and Joanne Stimmler]

Kevin,
Were you happy with the services provided by KC Perfofmance Rigging? Just want to make sure my referrals are worthy.

Mike

[Stu Jackson]

Kevin, thanks for the update and confirming what we've all found over the years about raising the main.  Your summary was very, very well written.

Craig Illman did something almost unique:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4946.0.html

That idea has spread and Rick Allen did it with a cam cleat, which I'm planning to do to replace the simple horn cleat I added years ago.  Either the clutch (sheet stopper) or cam cleat are great to avoid having to return to the mast to get the last two feet winched up.

Here's Rick's cam cleat.

[rick allen cam cleat]

[Kevin Henderson]

One last reply on this topic.  Mike Stimmler refferred me to KC Performance Rigging here in san Diego.  I could not have asked for a better referral for an expertly qualified and professional rigging service.  If your in SD, give Casey and Fritz a call.  The rates were reasonable, the service professional and the written report of the inspection (which I just received in my email) was complete and gave me a couple good recommendations for more efficient running of my Genoa Halyard as well. 
Of note is the halyard tension.  I suspected and confirmed that my port cabin winch had suffered considerable strain in the past.  Though troublesome, it is still usable and unbelievably, Fritz of KC Performance rigging said he had a complete winch identical to mine that had been beat up and would give it to me free if I just stopped by the shop.  (OF COURSE I SAID YES AND COULDNT BELIEVE THE GENEROUS OFFER).  It is due to this winch that the Genoa halyard tension was difficult to attain.

I thought I would share the major points of my rigging inspection performed by KC Performance Rigging and the receomendations to improve performance.

On January 7, 2011, I visually inspected the mast, rigging and related
hardware on the 1988 Catalina 34, "Pau Hana. The mast had been pulled
back in 2006 and painted. The standing rigging, running rigging and
electrical had also been replaced. The vessel has been maintained very well
since that time and no structural problems were found. There are several
things that can be changed that will improve the handling and performance
of the boat. These are discussed in detail below.
• The Hood 800SL Genoa roller reefing system was difficult to furl.
This was being caused by inadequate halyard tension. The 800SL
system relies on the halyard to pull the drive unit up and stabilize
itself against the tie-down shackle. With the halyard slack, the unit
was rotating and this caused the furling line to bind against the cage.
From the cockpit it was very difficult to get the necessary halyard
tension. This is being caused by excess friction on the halyard as it
leads from the mast base back to the winch. The deck organizers and
fairleads as installed by Catalina create the majority of the friction.
To correct this situation will require a complete rework of the deck
hardware. In addition, the port halyard winch mounted on the cabin
top has been over-loaded and has some structural damage. An
alternative to the existing system would be to move both the winches
and stoppers to the mast.
• The mainsail halyard suffers from the same friction problem as the
Genoa halyard. I suggest for the time being the main halyard gets
jumped from the mast while the slack is taken up on the winch.
• Currently the Genoa furling line leads all the way aft and turns 180
degrees thru a Harken cam block. This turn is causing increased
friction. I suggest installing a rope-clutch mounted on a car to the
outboard track between the gate stanchion and its brace. Just aft of
this clutch a car mounted block will allow the furling line to be pulled
and locked while facing forward and keeping the line from making the
180 degree turn. The forward most fairlead block for the furling line
needs a stand-up spring to stabilize the block when it is not loaded.
• The life lines had no cracked swages or broken strands. The threaded
toggle forks on the front end of the gates need to be dismantled
cleaned and reassembled with loctite. They are slowly unscrewing.
• The Lewmar winches, except for the port cabin house winch are in
good condition. They can all use a good cleaning and lubrication.
• The cams for the mainsail traveler controls need to be replaced. They
have been stressed and the return springs are shot.
• The mainsail reefing system is not complete. The simplest way to
complete it would be to add a 5" cleat forward on the starboard side of
the boom. Next place a reefing hook bolted to the gooseneck
replacing the existing tack pin. Install a pair of stainless rings webbed
thru the existing reef tack grommet to secure on the reef hook.
Finally, install a line, approximately 25', run through the existing
track mounted car back aft for the clew line leading thru the sail
forward to the cleat.

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