Major Electronics Overhaul

jedowden · November 19, 2010, 07:51:20 AM

Hi All,

As winter approaches, I've decided to undertake a major electronics upgrade on my 88' C34 we purchased this summer. We are loving the boat, but thought we would bring the electronics into this decade. Over the past few months, I've been slowly acquiring the goods...and here's what I have so far:

1. Chartplotter - I have several (used, of course), as I was unsure of which one would be best. They are all Garmin, and I have the 5212, 5208, and 4208 to choose from. (I'm leaning towards the 5208, since it's smaller footprint, and touch screen feature.)

2. Radar - GMR 18 HD Garmin 18" Radar

3. GSD 22 Digital Sounder - Not sure if I need this, but it came with the bundle....and I don't fish. Does anybody else have this?

I will not bombard the group with a ton of questions right now, but I'm going to try the installation myself, with some help from my rigger. He's not an electronics guy, per say, but together...and with some help from the forum, I'm hoping to be able to accomplish this project.

My immediate question has to do with the transducer. The current one on the boat is a Uniden QT-206, and I don't know if it will tie into the Garmin Network via the NMEA 2K or NMEA 0183 connections on the back of the chartplotter. So far, I've gotten both yes, and no. Does anyone know about this?

I also plan on replacing the angle guard with a Navpod 9.5" Double Bend version to house the chartplotter, as well as 3 x more instruments which have yet to be identified.

I'm anxious about this project, and I look forward to the dialogue with the group. As soon as I can figure out how to post pics on this forum, I will do so (help?).

Thanks in advance,
Josh

Stu Jackson · November 19, 2010, 08:06:43 AM

Josh,

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4053.0.html

Also, when posting, bottom of the text box, left side, Additional Options.

Ken Juul · November 19, 2010, 08:40:52 AM

Plan your installation at the helm very carefully. A friend bought a brand new boat, had the dealer mount a 12" CP in a pod in a similiar set up. Once he took possession of the boat he realized he could not stand behind the helm and see forward because the pod blocked his line of sight. He is now stuck with it.

There is plenty of extra room in the pedestal to run cables, but it may take some surgury in the inside mount plate to get enough room to pass the connectors thru.

One of the things you may want to install on the pod is a waterproof 12v power outlet.

A study of the manual or an email to the OEM should tell you if the transducer speaks NMEA or a different language. If you don't have the specs, you can probably get a manual on line.

Personal preference, I found after using a touch screen on a friends boat for a weekend that I was constantly cleaning the fingerprints off the screen so I could read it. It was a hot sweaty July weekend, but I prefer the buttons on my CP.

Oversize your power and ground cables and solder all connections, the electronics, especially the radar are very sensitive about low voltage. Had all sorts of dropping out problems until I found the one loose crimp connection the PO hide in a wiring run.

Take you time, plan carefully. It is a very DIY project.

Mike and Joanne Stimmler · November 19, 2010, 11:38:16 AM

You may also want to consider an auto pilot if you don't already have one.

I'll post some pictures of my nav pod when I get home. Mine is the single bend which isn't quite as tall.

Mike

Stu Jackson · November 19, 2010, 12:40:18 PM

One VERY important consideration is how you intend to use your boat.

Once you place your instruments at the helm, you become a "slave" to being behind the wheel.

Those of us who singlehand a lot, and those who travel long distances, like Steve (waterdog) Dolling & his family, and a friend with a C36, have found that having all the instruments behind the helm is very limiting, and quite frankly for me a PITA.

Our autopilot is not behind the helm, the control head is located on the starboard coaming in line with the wheel, allowing use for when behind the wheel as well as from where I spend most of my time, in front of the wheel.

Steve wrote about his installation in this 1500 Mile Update thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html and where he placed his chartplotter.

So, before you install everything back there, consider your alternatives.

I also agree with ken about touch screens. Not only is our brand new car's navigation screen filthy already (I gotta stop eating potato chips in the car while trying to navigate

), but also consider cold weather sailing and dealing with gloves. Yeah, I know they now make gloves just for that, but I've been sailing for over 25 years in cold conditions and am still working on finding gloves that are both warm and waterproof - and I have dozens on board to choose from! Having to deal with warm, waterproof AND touch screen friendly doesn't sound like such a neat thing to have to deal with. And taking gloves off when it's cold isn't too much fun either.

Here's another discussion: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5345.0.html

All the best with your installation.

Your boat, your choice.

Lance Jones · November 19, 2010, 01:06:37 PM

Consider tactik instruments. They're wireless and can be mounted anywhere. I have a large repeater that is mounted outside, under the entrance into the cabin so that when I single hand, I can cycle through all of the data I have such as wind, speed, depth etc... Love it and NO WIRES/CABLES to run. If I need to go forward, there is also a remote that I can hang around me neck and take with me. It's about the size of an I-Phone.

horsemel · November 21, 2010, 06:29:58 AM

Our Garmin GPS Map 640 touchscreen is not heat sensitive and can be operated using a stylus (a nice feature for those of us who have sausages masquerading as fingers) as well. I just don't like multifunction buttons and like the intuitive nature of the touch screen. This solves the cold weather aspect. We have not had the issue with finger prints because it has a matte finish on the screen. I had the same issue with my Droid X until I got some of stick-on screen protectors. No more reflections or finger prints. It just depends on what you get. I had the same concerns as Ken and Stu when I purchased our touch screen last season.
Mark Mueller

jedowden · November 21, 2010, 10:23:32 AM

Thanks for all the input...as always. I love this place!

Here are some updates on the project...

I've decided to stick with the Touch Screen, and I'm going back up to the 12" 5212. Since I bought a double bend Angle guard (went with the 1.25" diameter tubing instead of the 1" for easier cable access), the unit will actually sit on a 45 degree angle at a height of about 42", which shouldn't hinder my view from the helm any more than the dodger already does. I can get around the menu's 10x faster with the touchscreen, and it does have a screen protector. The cold weather concerns are limited here in San Diego too. Since I plan on splitting screens between radar, sounder, charts, etc...I think the bigger screen will prove to be the right decision (hopefully!).

Yesterday I spent 14 hours on the boat, working on running cables, splicing, etc., and I got a lot done. I ended up using the same GPS Antenna mounting location as the old one, which was on the stern rail.

Instead of messing with a haul out or major dive job to update the thru hull transducer, the guy at West Marine talked me into a "shoot thru" type...now I just need to go through the installation process. Doesn't seem too bad, once I find the "sweet spot". The old "thru hull" will just sit in it's hole...but not be connected.

The Tack Tick instruments are very nice, and I may consider them when the time comes. The idea of not having to run cables from the top of the mast to the helm is very appealing, provided the data is reliable and constant. Right now, I do have an old Signet wind sensor and display that works, but is very bulky. In the spirit of cleaning up the helm area, and making things more tidy...this old Signet may have to go...but I'm still looking at some other options.

As for single-handing my boat...I've never done it. With 4 boys, someone always wants to hang out with dad...at least for now anyway

My auto pilot is also mounted to the starboard coaming, and I don't plan on moving it. I had to buy a NMEA 0183 cable to make it talk to the new Garmin 5212, but that was it! I wasn't expecting that one to be so easy.

As for the radar, I haven't gotten anywhere with it. I need a lot of network cable (40'-60'), and nobody had any on Saturday. I think I will need to hit up an electronics place during the week for this.

I will post pictures as soon as I have something worth looking at

Thanks again everyone...Josh

waterdog · November 22, 2010, 02:28:47 PM

A few electronic thoughts, mostly too late, but maybe worth thinking about:

1) The new garmins come with a NEMA2000 GPS antenna. These can be installed below decks - I have mine just forward of the nav desk. Never had a problem with reception.
2) Since you have a 2000 network, you might want to look at a NEMA 2000 triducer at your next haulout. Gives speed, depth, and temperature from one instrument and displays nicely on your plotter. I wouldn't even bother with separate instrument displays unless I was racing.
3) Since you have integrated your autopilot when you fire up your radar, you will get heading data and MARPA targets. Very useful in night or fog. Consider adding in an AIS receiver for a couple hundred dollars. Displays right on your plotter. Very useful.

scotty · November 22, 2010, 08:21:05 PM

I'm pretty much a low-tech guy, so I've had a low tech solution. I wanted a GPS chart/plotter but wanted it cheap and with a low profile. When I steer, I want to see the boat and the water, not an electronic screen. I bought a Garmin 420 unit for about $350 at West Marine (a demo model with their upgraded warranty). It has a built in antenna and a plug-in power chord. I made an oak mounting bracket attached to the rails of the binnacle (is that the right word?). It sits just above the compass (and doesn't effect the compass readings). I can take it on and off very easily. I only mount it if there is a chance of fog, at night, or if I want it for navigation. If the weather is bad, I can just take it down below and user it at the nav station. The 4" screen is not great, but it suits my needs. It's very unobtrusive when it's mounted and I consider it an important part of my safety gear.

jedowden · November 24, 2010, 08:41:30 PM

Thanks Steve, that's a great idea and I had completely forgot about those triducers. I'm glad the "shoot thru" was relatively cheap, since it probably will be temporary. I tried the "under mount", and the reception was good...however, when I put it topside on the stern rail, the GPS error went from 15ft to 9ft. Not a big deal, but I suppose the closer to zero the better, right? Is the AIS Receiver another antenna?

Scotty, do you have pics of your setup?

waterdog · November 25, 2010, 11:06:02 PM

Quote from: jedowden on November 24, 2010, 08:41:30 PM
Thanks Steve, that's a great idea and I had completely forgot about those triducers. I'm glad the "shoot thru" was relatively cheap, since it probably will be temporary. I tried the "under mount", and the reception was good...however, when I put it topside on the stern rail, the GPS error went from 15ft to 9ft. Not a big deal, but I suppose the closer to zero the better, right? Is the AIS Receiver another antenna?

Scotty, do you have pics of your setup?

The AIS operates on VHF frequency. So you need a splitter on your VHF antenna, or my preferred option separate VHF antenna. I run one off the top of my bimini. I've received signals over long distances. you don't need to be on the top of the mast. The box you can get from Miltech marine for a few hundred dollars. The cheap one works fine with your Garmin.

jedowden · November 27, 2010, 07:34:10 AM

I'm at the part of the project where I need the most help...a la the most ignorant

...either way, here are some questions:

1. Running the power. I have all wires consolidated just below the cockpit, near that little box attached to the aft cabin bulkhead. There is the power cable for the plotter, the sounder, the wind speed/sensor, the compass light, and the network backbone (yes, it needs it's own power too). What's the best way to combine all these power cables, and make one run to either the battery post, or to the switchboard? Is one better than the other?

2. What should I do about ground? Would it be best to run it straight to the negative post of the one of the batteries...or does the hull make a good ground?

3. Last, and probably the most dumb question of all. How do I tell which battery(s) is for starting the engine, and which 2 are considered "house" batteries? I know there are 3 in total...and I can see that there are 2 connected together with a lot of stuff attached to the positive post....but I can't tell which batteries coincide with the selector switch (1, 2, or ALL).

Side note: Since I have the aft bulkhead removed, I have clear access and visibility to the steering cables, water tank, etc. Is there anything I should be doing for routine maintenance back there, like greasing the steering cables?

Thanks all,
Josh

Stu Jackson · November 27, 2010, 12:16:16 PM

Quote from: jedowden on November 27, 2010, 07:34:10 AM

2. What should I do about ground? Would it be best to run it straight to the negative post of the one of the batteries...or does the hull make a good ground?

3. Last, and probably the most dumb question of all. How do I tell which battery(s) is for starting the engine, and which 2 are considered "house" batteries? I know there are 3 in total...and I can see that there are 2 connected together with a lot of stuff attached to the positive post....but I can't tell which batteries coincide with the selector switch (1, 2, or ALL).

4. Side note: Since I have the aft bulkhead removed, I have clear access and visibility to the steering cables, water tank, etc. Is there anything I should be doing for routine maintenance back there, like greasing the steering cables?

Josh,

1 & 2. Power & Ground: Your engine is your ground, not the hull. You need to "design" the electrical connections for your new system. You have to decide how to switch it and most likely at the main electrical panel. Some folks have added separate subpanels (do a search on subpanel and see). If you are contemplating using a battery monitor in the future (and you definitely should), then you'll need to run the new stuff's ground back to the battery location or to the individual circuit (i.e., your new circuit) switch (not the 1-2-B switch) negative buss on the main panel so the negative shunt on the battery monitor reads everything going through the entire electrical system. Many of us highly recommend you buy and read an electrical system book or two: Charlie Wing or Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Manual. We can't really teach you everything you need to know here.

3. Battery wiring to 1-2-B switch. Find the red wires leaving each of the banks. Remove one bank's red wire and turn the switch with a few lights on. If the lights go out... You could also check this out: Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html

4. Yes, check everything, and read the Critical Upgrades. The rudder and shaft info is here: http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/techdata-rudder-packing-gland.html Do a search on the words you used and read the C34 Tech wiki.