C34 Capsize 'Not Good'?

Kirk Garner · October 19, 2010, 11:40:41 PM

We purchased our C34 last month and still getting acquainted with her. Was checking out the Model Specifications in Catalina Owners website and came across the info here:
sail_area 528 SR / 554 TR
capsize not good
years_prod 1988

Does anyone have an idea what is meant by 'Not Good' in relation to capsizing? Sorry if this has been addressed in the past..... I am still learning how to glean the info from this awesome sight (yes, I just became a member of the C34 International Assn).

Thanks, Kirk

Joe and Carol · October 20, 2010, 04:20:49 AM

I believe the capsize ratio measures ability of a vessel to withstand knockdown. You can find the formula by research but the C34 appears to measure around or less than 2.0 which is marginal. My thoughts are only in a microburst would one experience the valued design stability of the C34 in application of capsize ratio to seaworthiness.

Ken Juul · October 20, 2010, 06:24:51 AM

The capsize screening ratio is determined by dividing the Beam at the water line by the cube root of displacement/64 . CSR=Bwl/((disp/64)^0.33). It was developed after the 1979 Fastnet Race diaster in which many boats were knocked down and lost. The rule of thumb is boats with a CSR higher than 2 should not participate in off shore races.

I don't have the Bwl number, it is slightly less than the 11' 9" beam, so I used 11', if it is less than that the ratio gets better. Plugging the numbers in gives a design CSR of 1.92, since most of the boats are much heavier than the design weight of 12,500# the numbers at 14,000# and 15,000# are 1.85 and 1.81.

I think the CO website used the max beam and the design displacement which gives a CSR value of 2.06. I don't think they used the correct data. Rest assured, the boat is quite stable if sailed within it's design limitations. Head sail to match the local conditions, first reef in the main at ~16-18kts true, second reef ~20-22kts.

waterdog · October 20, 2010, 08:13:45 AM

"Not Good" puts it on the borderline of the screening level for "offshore / bluewater" boats. If you apply the screening criteria against coastal cruisers and compared the C34 to others the categorization might be something like "Excellent / Sturdy / Stiff" I would think and prepare carefully before taking a C34 across an ocean.

Having rounded up a C34 in 25 knots and ten foot seas off Mendocino, I'm pleased to report that they do pop right back up when you knock em down...

Indian Falls · October 20, 2010, 04:38:47 PM

Steve, did you put the story or details of that bit of excitement on this forum anywhere? Would love to read about that some time!

Ron Hill · October 20, 2010, 06:00:56 PM

Kirk : I'm not too sure what this guy meant by NOT GOOD ??

I've had my C34 for over 22 years and have NEVER been able to put the "rail in the water". I also have the elliptical rudder. I've been caught in winds of 50 knots, so I'm not too sure what this guy is talking about. Also I've never seen his post before. Can't believe even a near capsize, because the boat will head up into the wind first!!

Stu Jackson · October 20, 2010, 08:22:21 PM

Quote from: indianfalls on October 20, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Steve, did you put the story or details of that bit of excitement on this forum anywhere? Would love to read about that some time!

Dan, yup, he did, of course, read Steve's blog, via this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html

Stu Jackson · October 20, 2010, 08:27:00 PM

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5502.0.html

waterdog · October 20, 2010, 09:32:20 PM

Quote from: indianfalls on October 20, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Steve, did you put the story or details of that bit of excitement on this forum anywhere? Would love to read about that some time!

I wrote a lot of stuff. It would have monopolized this board if I posted it all. You can find the story of the round up looking through old entries 08/27/2009 it's called Sheet Happens. Stu posted the link above

scotty · October 20, 2010, 09:36:57 PM

Steve, I took the time to read your entries and your blog. Great stories and great adventure. One question: Where are you now?

Stu Jackson · October 20, 2010, 10:51:13 PM

Ahem, you read the blog and you don't know where he is now? Ach, well, he coulda left his home and his family and hightailed to Moosejaw, but I don't think he did. Yet.

waterdog · October 21, 2010, 12:00:32 PM

I think it's a fair question Stu. I don't think I've updated my position map. It probably still shows me in Las Vegas or Bellingham or somewhere. We are back at home in Vancouver.

Stu Jackson · October 21, 2010, 12:09:57 PM

Darn, I was hopin' for Moosejaw! Hi to Tracy and Foster from all of us.

Indian Falls · October 22, 2010, 03:25:15 PM

I've read Steve D's posts with great admiration.

I also admire anyone who can seem to manage the info in this forum.

You can't find "sheet" on this forum... or "happens".

I plugged in all the key words, I followed Stu's links, I searched for Waterdog, Steve and Dolling nothing is coming up with any reference to "knock down" "broach" "round up" etc... Its been about an hour of digging and reading so far and I've thrown in the towel. I even went back twice to look again before submitting this post!

Seems like the only way I'll see it is if somebody who knows how to put the word in the search box a certain magical way will paste it into this thread. I thought I did a thorough search prior to my comment asking if the story had been posted before, but now I'm just defeated.

PS, Steve: please feel free to monopolize the forum! Your experiences, comments and point of view are what I was hoping to find when I came to the forum.

PPS: for the last 30 minutes before editing this post, I paged back to August 27 2009 and still there is no post titled "sheet happens" or any post about a tip over. U N C L E! U N C L E!!!

Stu Jackson · October 22, 2010, 04:05:31 PM

AUNT AUNT

Dan,

There simply haven't been too many "knockdown" stories here, other than the one earlier referenced that I posted, and was noted by Steve (it was his story), and the links embedded therein.

The simple reasons are:

There haven't been too many of those kinda stories, and Steve's are by far the best. Why? Because other than his traveling mate in the Baja HaHa, in a C34 Mark II from San Diego, he's one of the only ones (other than Terry Forshier in one of those links) who has written extensively about offshore sailing and posted here. There may be many C34 skippers who have sailed in heavy conditions, but we haven't heard from them.

From skippers on Lake Erie and other of the Great Lakes, who see enormous seas build up rather immediately, they have reported that the boats handle things well although they may not have been that comfortable, personally.

The boats are pretty forgiving. Because of the beam, like C22s and C25s, they tend to round up when over pressed with canvas. The noise is horrible from flogging sails, but the boat is stable.

Is this what you're looking for? If I come across any more "horror stories" I'll link them here, but you're on right track in looking (maybe use single words instead of knock down) but if it isn't here, you shan't be able to find it.

And none of us really "manage" this forum, it's simply a chronological record of Q&As over the years. I just happen to recall things and have built up a small treasury of search phrases. Sometimes I'll add link words, like the new "tags" that have appeared on computers.

The real management comes form those who have contributed their time & effort to make the rest of this website what it is: one of the best roundups of information about not only the C34 but its supporting systems, and the handful of skippers who did a monumental job of establishing and maintaining the C34 Tech wiki (I had no part in that herculean effort).