water in the bilge

[ed webb]

Well the ice is for the most off of Lake Michigan, and it's time to start getting ready for the season. The boat has been on the hard since the middle of last September. We ended the season early last year due to other commitments.

I had been out to visit the boat a few times over the winter (didn't want it to feel ignored). In January I found that the bilge was quite full and frozen. I added about 3 gallons of antifreeze in the hopes of melting the ice. Checked 2 weeks later and it was starting to soften, so hopefully I have avoided any serious damage. We went out this past weekend to do what we could to get an early start making sure that all is in good working order before we launch in mid April. I pumped out about 10 gallons from the bilge. Deducting the 3 gallons that I added that leaves about 7 gallons of unwanted water in the bilge.
So here are my questions:

Is it likely that 7 gallons of water could have come down the mast?

I spoke with Stu about the possibility of the water coming through the scuppers that my wife had cleared with some sort of sharp object. As far as I could see she didn't puncture it. However I can't see behind the aft water tank. Also we have a full canvas that would keep most of the water out of the cockpit (I think).

How do I remove the water tank to see in back of it? There are 2 heavy cables in front of it that run up into the pedestal.

On the subject of the pedestal, is it likely that much water could have leaked around it?
I ask this as there was quite a bit of water in the aft cabin. We remove the cushions during the winter so no damage there. I also think that this might add to the possibility of the water tank leaking theory.

Thanks for any input,
Ed

[Ted Pounds]

Your water tanks should have been empty when you stored.  If they weren't that could be the problem.  A Lot of water can come down the mast too.  It can also leak around the hatches in in the cockpit if the channels at the edged get clogged with debris.  The water in the aft cabin would tend to point a finger at the pedestal.  Another possibility are the scuppers at the toe-rail.  They're not reinforced with glass and I had the aft starboard one crack and leak into the aft cabin.  You might want to generate some 'rain' with a hose while someone is below checking for leaks.  Just a few thoughts...

[Kyle Ewing]

I've yet to figure out how to remove the rear tank.  I have a 1990 (#1010) and it looks like I'd have to remove all the pedestal cables (electrical wire and transmission/throttle) to get the tank out, not a job I want.  Let me know if you find a trick.

It might be easier to go in through the aft lazarette to inspect the scuppers.  I have the sugar scoop transom so it's pretty simple to remove the lazarette floor.  That's how I access the steering quadrant.

How deep in the bilge did 7 gallons of water stand?  I used to place several plastic bottles with gravel in the bilge.  The idea was if water got in and froze it'd expand into the bottle and not put as much stress on the hull.  May or may not be valid but it kept me from worrying as much.

[Ron Hill]

Ed : I believe that about 7 gallons could have come down the mast of your 1990 C34 (I had to look up your boat year - please post it!!)
It's not too likely that water was comming in thru the scuppers, but a small amount could have penetrated that wire reinforced wet exhaust hose that Catalina install as scupper drain hose.
To remove the aft tank :
Remove the port side aft cabin panel and then the aft panel (they are interlocked).
Disconnect the water fill and over flow hoses on top and the drain hose on the bottom.  You'll have to "cut a notch" in the lower aft panel fiberglass to be able to slide the tank out - so the drain hose fitting in the bottom of the tank for that fitting, or won't clear that fiberglass ridge. 
You shouldn't have to dismantle any of the steering.  But you should inspect the idler pins, sheaves and cabling when that tank is out. 
Not quite"a piece of cake", but not too hard either.  A few thoughts

[horsemel]

Welcome to the lots of water in the bilge gang.  This is the third winter with or boat and we have lots (7-12 gallons)of water in the bilge every winter.  I go up a couple of times in the winter and pump it out if it thaws. I am sure it comes down the mast because the previous owner always stored with the mast down except for the last year he owned it  He said it was the only time there was water in the bilge in the winter.  The admiral and I are going to pull the mast this next winter and see how that goes.  So far we have not had any damage because my theory is that when the water freezes and expands it expands up the side of the bilge.  When I was a kid and the milkman left the milk on the porch in the winter, the cream at the top of the bottle would freeze and expand out the top pushing the cardboard lid off.  (Mom would get mad cause I would eat the cream!) Yes, I remember getting the milk delivered by horse drawn wagon.
Mark Mueller
Blue Moon #815
1988

[ed webb]

Thanks for all of the good advise. I did empty the tanks, and added a gallon or so of antifreeze to each. I'm thinking that it's the pedestal or the scuppers still. The full canvas keep most water out, but there was ice around the scuppers. I like the idea of making it rain.

I spoke with Stu and he told me that my hull was built on the cusp. It doesn't have the full sugar scoop, but it also doesn't have the straight transom. I didn't realize that you could access through the aft lazerette. That would much easier than trying to squeeze my oversized frame over the water tank.  The water in the bilge was about at the top of the bilge pumps, and about 3 inches below the sole. I like the idea of giving the ice somewhere else to go.

Sorry about the lack of a hull number. I have made the corrections

This was our second winter. Last year we didn't have harly any water in the spring. I really like the idea of pumping it out before the ice forms. I think that I could do that mid to late November and possibly avoid this next year. The guy we bought the boat from store it inside too. I decided that I would save the additional cost of pulling the mast.

Thanks again, I will let you know how this all works out

[Clay Greene]

I had the same problem last year, although I am a little embarrassed to admit the cause.  We forgot to drain the water heater the previous winter and the water in the reservoir tank leaked out into the bilge over time and froze.  We already knew we had a leak in the water heater and had planned to replace it in the spring so it was no big deal.  This may not be your problem if you are sure that you drained the water heated and/or know that your water heater is intact.  Our boat is a 1989 so I would not be surprised if an original water heater in a 1990 boat had rusted out from the bottom, which was the case with us. 

We also are on Lake Michigan - McKinley Marina in Milwaukee.  I saw a fleet of 420s out on the water yesterday so sailing finally is beginning return to the Upper Midwest at last. 

[ed webb]

I drained the water heater, and the put antifreeze in it. I'm holding out until April 25th before we splash. just not that big a fan of the cold.

[David Arnold]

I'm a  bit confused.  I too had about 6 or 7 inches of water in the bilge when I went down to the boat (on  the hard) for the first time in many months and wondered where it came from.  Since the mast on the C34 does not go through the cabin top how can water come down the mast and into the interior of the boat?

[Ted Pounds]

David, your model has a deck-stepped mast.  Ed's year they were keel-stepped.  In your case, yes, the water must be coming from somewhere else besides the mast.

[Stu Jackson]

Ed's year they were keel-stepped.

This is one of those "contrary-to-public-opinion" thingies.  A few years ago we did some research on commonly assumed assumption that there were "years" for keel or deck stepped masts and learned this:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1406.0.html

[sail4dale]

I had a deck strpped mast on my Cat 30 and yes we got water down the mast into the bilge.  I came thru the wiring drilled hole and from there down the easiest path.  My masta is keel stepped so I can't say about the 34's but it is just another thought.

[Ken Heyman]

I'm also a member of the "winter water/ice in the bilge club". At haul out I dump a couple of gallons of antifreeze into a dry bilge and usually end up with 6 inches of ice mid winter. I probed it one winter and discovered that it is slushy at the keel boats and solid ice at the top of the freeze. While not desirable, there has never been any apparent damage.
i just write it off to the joy of  the Lake Michigan sailing experience.

Ken