Roll bar anchors on bow roller Rocna Flix

[Stu Jackson]

See, see, see!!!!

All done with the original TOY bow rollers!

Yipee!

Now I KNOW I don't have to install a new BIG bow roller.

Thanks, Steve

[badams]

I have the Rocna 15 on the toy roller.  Works well.  Steve, what are you using as a back up, and where is it?

[Stu Jackson]

Who needs a backup with a Rocna or a Manson Supreme?   

A stern anchor choice is usually a Fortress or Danforth.

[waterdog]

I have the Rocna 15 on the toy roller.  Works well.  Steve, what are you using as a back up, and where is it?

A backup?

From the way you phrased the question, it sounded like you expected it on the bows?   Interesting.   I've never carried a backup forward.   I keep it in the aft locker.   Currently a 15 kg claw type anchor with a couple hundred feet of chain / nylon combo.   My thinking for backup is it's used in one of two modes:  1) primary is hoplessly snagged, float it, call the diver and use the backup for the rest of the weekend or 2) holy crap we're dragging and there's the rocks!   

In 1) there is plenty of time to drag the rode forward and lay it in the anchor locker.   For 2) I want it available right now for deployment in any conditions.   That means it's in the cockpit right by my wheel, engine controls etc.    I'm not going forward.   

The backup to my backup is a danforth.   This is going on the end of a couple hundred feet of a series drogue.    Serves two functions - keeps the drogue in the water for those days we feel like surfing down 40 foot seas and fondling our EPIRB (ie hopefully never) and it can be used as a conventional anchor for those days when the other two just aren't enough.   I haven't started sewing the drogue yet - upholstery and spinnaker first to get the crew excited.   No need to scare them away at the outset!

The backup to the backup to the backup is a folding grapple type anchor that hangs on the end of a nylon tube with a shockcord in the middle.   This is our dingy anchor.    If the other 3 anchors are gone, it means the boat probably sank and we are in a liferaft, maybe towing the dingy.   Come to think of it.  In this mode, we never would have had time to load an anchor in the dingy.    There is no backup to the backup to the backup!  But if you haven't seen these anchors they're amazing.    You toss it over as your dingy is approaching shore, hit the beach and get out, then you let the shockcord pull the dingy back out to sea while you hold the painter.   You're dingy is anchored with a shore tie and you don't have to drag it down the beach when you come back and the tide is out.   Useless for a lake sailor but great for tides!   I digress.  I'll take a picture and post separately some other time...

 

[waterdog]

See, see, see!!!!

All done with the original TOY bow rollers!

Yipee!

Now I KNOW I don't have to install a new BIG bow roller.

Thanks, Steve

Stu, I lived for a year and half thinking I need to put a proper bow roller on the boat.    But the more I think about it the more I'm convinced the boat already has a proper bow roller.   Ever get caught in an anchorage where the sea started running?   Big loads on that bow roller.   You want a short lever arm.    Sailing performance?   You want weight as close to the center of the boat as possible - not hanging out forward.   We don't have plumb bows so the anchor isn't dragging up the gelcoat on retrieval.   The only reason I can think of for an extended bow roller is to protect the gelcoat from the anchor when it sits in the roller.    That's best done with a little patch of stainless applied for protection.   Don't need a long roller.

So that's the extensive rationale for not doing anything.   In other words, I'm cheap and lazy and that's not always a bad thing!   Now where is Jon to tell me that I'm cheap and lazy?

[Braxton]

So does a 15 KG claw fit on the stubby double roller?     I'm trolling the local BoatersWorlds for liquidation deals and I have my eye on a 15KG claw.   It would be nice to know that its going to fit.

Also...

What's the preferred method for anchors in place if you have them up on the roller?   I can imagine all sorts of shock cord setups but they all seem prone to failure.

[Stu Jackson]

So does a 15 KG claw fit on the stubby double roller?     I'm trolling the local BoatersWorlds for liquidation deals and I have my eye on a 15KG claw.   It would be nice to know that its going to fit.

Claw what?  Some specifics would be in order.  Bruce, Delta, Rocna, Manson Supreme, nope, the last two are too new for your description.  After the discussion about anchors (see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.0.html, reply #33, page 3, search on anchor, mainesail), I would think that anybody who had any $ would spend the extra few bucks for something that would save their $50K+++ boat without hesitation.  35# of "something" on the bow is NOT half as worthwhile as 20# of Rocna or Manson Supreme.  Period.  Of course, your selected anchor weight may vary based on the sizing of YOUR particular anchoring SYSTEM.  I saved all sortsa $$ when I bought our old Bruce at a nautical swap meet eight years ago, but when I learned about these new anchors, that's what I bought and the ONLY thing I considered was a choice between a Rocna and a Manson Supreme.  When the anchor, when it bites, pulls you off the bow, you've got the right anchor.  This is truly one of those times when it is NOT a "Your boat, your choice" issue.  While we all say anchors are like choices in (you pick it, women, whiskey, wine, etc.), I disagree strongly NOW, and posit that this is no longer one of 'em.  If you re-read the Anchor link, some folks still swear by what they have.  Their boat, their choice, but if you're buyin' somethin' else?....

The Rocna has a very, very long main fluke.  If it fits (my Rocna 10 and Steve's 20 and my old Bruce), yours will, too.

What's the preferred method for anchors in place if you have them up on the roller?   I can imagine all sorts of shock cord setups but they all seem prone to failure.

I've already reported that we tie our Rocna 10 roll bar off on the pulpit with line.  It appears that Steve has a similar line, but I'll let him answer for himself.  Shock cord is NOT right for holding anchors.  My Secretary reports in Mainsheet magazine discussed this a few issues ago.

[waterdog]

I think Braxton means a Lewmar claw.   It's a Bruce knockoff.   And the answer is yes it does fit on the stubby quite nicely.  That was my solution up to a few weeks ago.   And to hold it in, I actually drilled a hole through the shank and used the stock factory pin straight through.   

I also agree with Stu and appreciate the unambiguous advice.    I read every post on anchors when I bought the boat and kind of felt that the electronic consensus was a 15 kg Bruce type was the way to go.   In my opinion, I made a mistake and wish I had invested in a Rocna up front.   I don't often anchor in places exposed to gale force winds, but last summer I had wind veer and hit me side on with a stern tie and the claw dragged despite being set hard with a ten to one scope.   Twice.   So now I don't sleep well when I hear a shriek in the rigging with a claw anchor down. 

You don't want an anchor to work well 95% of the time unless you always stay on your boat, awake, standing watch.   Then you can afford to drag...   

[Stu Jackson]

Steve, you DID invest in "a Rocna up front!"  

Here's that Nov. 2008 Secretary report I mentioned in my last post.  For those of you who are still contemplating joining the C34IA, please note that many of the reports from others of your C34IA officers include technical information not only what's in the Tech Notes section.  Some of the older Mainsheet magazines included that technical information, 'cuz they hadn't yet invented the separate "Tech Notes" section.  Plus, we continue to recommend reading all of the quarterly  Mainsheet magazine, 'cuz the information from other boats sizes with similar systems, both in their officers reports, fleet activities and Tech Notes for items that apply to our boats as well as theirs, is invaluable.  There's still lots to learn out there.  Join the C34IA, support this website and read Mainsheet, a very good investment in your safety and pleasure while boating.

Just for grins & giggles, I added my anchor to my signature!  

The Napa Cruise was the first time I used our new Rocna 10 (22#) anchor.  It sits well on our old "toy" bow roller, but requires a line be tied onto it and back to the pulpit.  A few weeks later we were heading out the Gate after anchoring the night before.  About two miles out, I was down below on the phone, when I heard this horrible noise, thinking we'd hit something, something really big!  I popped up and, well, I'll let Dave tell "the rest of the story-"

"Suddenly I hear a rumbling sound - never heard on board before. The engine is off, so I know its not bearings or prop shaft related. Stu climbs (flies up!!!) the companion steps and we think together for 30 seconds before it dawns on us - that was an anchor chain sound. Up until now we had been riding the swells powerfully, with many a wave washing over the bow of the boat sluicing the entire front of the craft up to the dodger with salt spray and wash. One of these waves, or a series of them, had loosened the knot (that Dave tied!!!) holding the anchor to the bow pulpit, and the anchor had left fly toward the bottom.  As luck would have it, a tangle in the anchor rode at the aft end of the big center cleat stopped the entire line from unreeling and scrolling overboard. Somehow we were still sailing. The anchor had not hit bottom. Instead of dropping the sails, we just hove to. Then I went forward to assist Stu at the anchor locker.  Stu thought perhaps we were indeed "anchored" in a patch of very bumpy water just off Point Bonita. Surreal upon reflection.  I sat down on the bow, anchored my feet against the stanchions, and with the best body mechanics I could muster, began the long and arduous job of hauling in the anchor. Indeed upon a few hard tugs, it seemed like we were not actually dug into the bottom, but simply dragging the long chain and anchor like a heavy fishing line. Pull by pull the line came in.  I kept looking up at the rocks off point Bonita, concerned we might drift that way, but Stu was keeping a careful eye out, and the current plus wind were driving us parallel to, and not up upon the rocky point. I stopped often to brace the line against a bow cleat to catch my breath. What seemed like forever transpired in just a few minutes. Before I knew it there was wet chain in my hand and I knew we had only 30 more feet to go. With one more mighty effort the anchor was back aboard where it belonged, and Stu came forward with a very stout rope of sufficient length to tie a bombproof set of knots to hold it in place for the remainder of our journey. Phew!!"

So, I had replaced the shock cord that we earlier used on our old smaller Bruce anchor, and had used line with the new heavier Rocna.  Now we know how to tie useful knots, too!   Oh, and Dave's a mountaineer, the climbing kind -- he was mortified, but eventually happy we got everything back on board.  

Added 9/15/12:  I later added a Johnson cleat on the pulp[it to hold the anchor "restrainer."

[Stu Jackson]

Braxton & Dave,

You might also be interested in this: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=106915

[Braxton]

I think Braxton means a Lewmar claw.   It's a Bruce knockoff. 

Yes, that's what I meant.  Thank you for translating.

OK, I'm looking at the Ranco and Mason Supreme.   Right now we only have the original Danforth so almost anythng would be an upgrade.

[Stu Jackson]

Braxton, thanks for listening, because when it comes to the safety of your boat I sometimes use "the soapbox."  BTW, it's ROCNA.  If you use the links I provided to co.com, and do some comparative shopping, I think you'll find that you can get a reasonably good price on either one of them now.  They've been out a few years, have obtained rave reviews, are selling more and the prices have dropped.  I bought mine at a good price through the generosity of the local C36 Fleet here during a group purchase some time ago.

Last item: Anchoring Systems: you should size your entire system for conditions you think you'll experience.  Why is my anchor a Rocna 10 and Steve's is a 20, and others are 15s?  Here's why:

As I mentioned in earlier anchoring threads, I've sized our anchoring system for 42 kts. That's the anchor, chain, rode and all shackles. That's because we're somewhat between other posters. We rarely have thunderstorms here, and the places we do traditionally anchor do not have winds anywhere near that strength. I also noted, for newbies and new readers, that our brethren in other parts of the country experience what others have mentioned: fronts moving through can easily have winds well in excess of the 42 kts we're sized for. I also noted that if I was going elsewhere I'd require and would install a heavier ground tackle system. We sized our system based on Calder's Cruising Handbook, anchoring sizing tables and information. We have a 22# Rocna with 1/4" chain and 1/2" line. Our friends back east and in the PNW have 35# equivalent anchors with either 1/4 or 5/16 chain and 5/8 line.

This comes from http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=604459

[Braxton]

I already have the stock Danforth for the regular conditions and a smaller Danforth as a backup and lunch hook.   I wasn't planning on getting rid of anything so I was planning on making the next anchor a bit oversized so it can handle the rough stuff that we may see.  So I suspect that I'll be looking at a #25 Rocna.   I'm also not sure where I want to store it.   I don't want all the weight on the bow (especially as I'd like to move to having more chain then I presently do) but the thought of not having the good anchor on the roller in an emergency is not appealing either.   

Any thoughts on Stainless vs. galvanized? 

[Stu Jackson]

Braxton, I gotta go out for my wife's birthday celebration.  Will get back to you later.  SS is worthless in anchoring gear.

[waterdog]

But Stu, tonight is my wife's birthday.   I've told her we can't have a focussed celebration because the Canucks are in a playoff hockey game.   If she finds out that you are celebrating, it will make me look bad.   

Wait a minute.   Is she out celebrating with you?   Are we married to the same woman?