Adding a second headsail furler

[Wayne]

Hi.
I'm evaluating the possibility of adding a second headsail furler--one I could use for a 'code zero' type cruising chute.  I know this is done frequently on larger boats, why not on a 34?
I already have the spinnaker which I tie onto the bow 'roller' and there is room there for another furler drum to fit.  I would need a second headstay.  Anyone have any thoughts about space 'up top'?  Or how to configure an attachment point at the top of the mast?  Anyone seen something like this done?
Any comments appreciated!

[Stu Jackson]

Wayne, I just did a search on staysail.  Found two discussions.  Think about other "words" to search and you may find more information.  The trick would seem to be mast support where anything other than the forestay meets the upper end of the mast, like running backstays.

[Craig Illman]

Wayne - The existing forestay already connects to a toggle that goes around a bolt in the mast-top casting. I don't think you'll get any higher. Check out the C34 owners manual (1988-page23) for a drawing. It would probably be easier to come inside the existing forestay.

Craig

[Wayne]

A rigger suggested the possibility of moving the existing headstay downward a foot or two.  I have an in-mast furler, and am concerned about being able to have strong enough support for a new attachment point.
How about a masthead 'crane' to provide an attachment point out in front of the existing headstay?
I'll search the notes.  My owners manual is aboard my boat--three hours away.

[Stu Jackson]

Wayne, your owners manual is a click away, right here on the website:  http://www.c34.org/manuals/index.htm

Save yourself a trip   

[Wayne]

Duh!  Thanks Stu.  Forgot all about the on line manual.

It looks to me like trying to move the existing forestay downward would be really tough; a crane might be the best option.

Let me explain in detail what I am trying to achieve.  I know there is lots of experience on this forum, and I'm pretty worried about taking a good looking boat that sails pretty well and screwing up.

I have a Doyle UPS a-spinnaker with an ATN snuffer.  It is kind of like a code 0 or genaker.  Works pretty well for spicing up light air days.  I store in in the port aft locker--right by the transom.  I have two problems that make using the chute enough of a pain that it tends to stay in its locker.

1.  I have lower back problems--blown disk.  One surgery already.  Doctor said keep my lifting under 20#'s and I'll be fine.  Get ambitious and I'll probably be back for more slice and dice. And he was right.  I'm good to 20#'s (or maybe a couple of pounds more); when I go over that limit I hurt for several hours.  My spinnaker weighs about 32#'s in the bag.  Too much for me to haul forward or back to its storage.  So I first take out the head of the sail and drag it forward, snaking around the shrouds, attach the halyard, raise, carry foot forward, come back, carry sheets forward and attach to clew.  Back and forth, back and forth.  The same process, only in reverse to take down.  Long, relatively slow process.  Plus with all the extra handling the snuffer sock sometimes gets twisted.

2.  I am the only sailor among my friends and family.  I almost always have people with me, but not experienced sailors or helmsmen.  When the wind kicks up and its time to snuff the sock I need to go forward and take care of business leaving someone on the helm who really shouldn't be alone when sailing on a fairly deep broad reach.  It takes me several trips to get things done, and both me and the person pressed into service on the helm are pretty stressed (especially when it is my wife on the wheel).

So, I'm trying to simplify things.  Somehow moving the spinnaker permanently forward would solve 3/4 of my problem.  Having it on a permanent furler would be great--I would never need to go forward.  A couple of other options I have considered would require some foredeck work, but probably cut my time up there by 75-80%.  I have lots of empty space in my anchor locker.  Perhaps partitioning and using one side to store the chute.  I'm not sure if there would be quite enough space (easily tested), but I'm also worried about the sail being soaked by salt water and always being wet.  Mold.  Yuck!  Another option I have thought of is a sail bag (the blue sunbrella bags boats using hanked on sails sometimes have permanently strapped onto the bow pulpit).  With a bag, I could have the tack of the spinnaker permanently attached (I use the 'upside down' bail on the anchor roller), spinnaker halyard close at hand, and even run the ATN control lines through a couple of blocks and back to the cockpit for easy snuffing.  Sheets could be left in place (just like I leave my jib sheets).  I would still need to go forward, but hopefully only once, and for a relatively short time.

So, please share your thoughts or opinions.  And any other solutions you might have seen or thought of!
Thanks for the advice.
Wayne

[Stu Jackson]

Tongue-in-cheek reply:

I just noticed that you're in San Francisco.  Where, pray tell, do you find conditions here that "Work.. pretty well for spicing up light air days."

The ONLY light air days here that I can think of are all during the winter.   Although there's less light due to the shorter days, that's when I want to be out as LONG as I possibly can, and find no hurry to want to get back to port!!!

More seriously:  You're in familiar territory - a C34 owner with an aching back.    We've taken to sometimes using the (furling) jib only, because we find that the only "work" actually left on our boat is taking off and replacing the mainsail cover!  We use our "seasonal" jibs, the 110 for the winter, the 85 for the summer, and leave one reef in the main from April to September.  We've never flown a kite on our boat, but have had tons of fun with Ray Irvine on the Jazz Cup scooting up to Benecia at over 9 knots with the chute.  It seems that your choice of sails and your well described physical issues (both your back and your foredeck) are serious considerations to remain fast on the water.  Since I'm not a chute expert, I'll leave it up to others to chime in, but the only considerations that I have read about here that may apply to your situation are those who have added stay sails on an inner forestay, with potential need for running backstays.  It's another boat trade-off: a smaller "regular" jib with the chute on the main forestay.

[Wayne]

Stu, I'm laughing . . .
I tend to get out early, and this May and June ran into some days where there was only the lightest of breezes out in the slot, until about 11:00 when in about a 15 minute time span we went from sails slatting to a first reef and then a second reef.  Like from about 3 kts wind to over 20.  I have an appointment next week to talk to the riggers at Svendsens--see what advice some pros might have.

But please, folks on the board, I'm hoping to hear your opinions.  No one knows a C34 like a C34 owner!

[Stu Jackson]

Wayne, here's another idea in the picture below.  In addition...

Given your description, I would say that it is NORMAL.  We get out early, too, but because the wind almost ALWAYS comes up between 1100 and 1300 we make sure we're as far west as we can be so that if it blows the proverbial, we can always head east.  Having sailed here for 25 years, and you may have, too, I would suggest that sailing in a summer morning with chute up without able crew is just asking for trouble.  We know it's gonna blow, and speed over the water or ground isn't important to us until it does, because then we're ready for it when it does blow: small jib, reefed main.  I HATE to motor, but in those conditions, I would, and do, always.  Just my way of doing things, but I do a lot of singlehanding, too.

[Ron Hill]

Wayne : Look at the old Mainsheet tech notes. 
I published an article on a 1987 MKI that installed a cutter rig with running back stays.   

[Stu Jackson]

Wayne, go here: http://www.c34.org/tech-notes-index/technotes-excel.xls if you're a C34 IA member, and in the spreadsheet All Articles tab use Ctrl-F to search for the word "cutter"

[Tom Soko]

Wayne,
I probably should mind my own business, but there is one point I just have to bring up.  You mentioned that you attach the tack of your spinnaker to the "upside down bail" on the anchor roller.  Everything I have read, and everyone I have talked to, including the builders of our fine craft, says that the spinnaker should NOT be attached to the end of the anchor roller. It was not designed for the loads associated with a spinnaker tack.  The bail on the end of the anchor roller was designed to keep the anchor rode captive in the roller, and keep it from jumping out.  Period.

[Wayne]

Tom, thanks for the comment.  I was concerned about the strength of the anchor roller also.  I called Catalina and talked to Kent yesterday.  He said that for a light air type sail the roller would be plenty strong.   He was definitely concerned about attaching anything like a forestay to it.  Suggested that if I did that I should consider some stainless work to beef up the support, and perhaps a bobstay.

At this point, I think adding a forestay is just too complicated.  I'm looking at putting a sail bag on the bow--like some boats use for hanked on jibs.  I think there is enough room inside the pulpit, and in front of the furler, to store the sail.  If I can achieve 90% of my goal, without altering and/or drilling holes in my boat . . . Well that sounds like a much better plan.  Not to mention a big difference in $$$$$ outlay.
Thanks again to everyone who offered advice.

[tommyt]

I saw a Spinnaker Furler at last years Strictly Sail. Thought it was interesting for a Asymmetrical, and they said it could be used with Cruising, Gennakers, and Code O as well. A little pricey at the time, but may be an option for you as well.

I found the sheet, no pictures, in my file. The website is : www.sailcdi.com