bleach v. peroxide

[clifford Rieders]

April 06 Sail magazine had good tips for spring conditioning. Recommended was clorox or some other type bleach to sanitize the water system. Would an environmentally friendly substitute like hydo peroxide do the same job or is the chlorine in the bleach the essentail ingredient? Thanks for all the good tips and advice thus far. Cliff c34 #1022, 1990

[Momentum M]

I'm no chemist...by far but if I remember correct from school some..yeark..years ago...that long !!! anyhow here it goes:
Peroxide is h2/o2...which mean 2 parts of hydrogene and 2 parts of oxygen.  When peroxide is activated 1 part of hydrogene evaporate leaving you with h2o = water.
On the other hand Chlorine is what you'd find in your domestic water(tap).  Chlorine also evaporate so that's why, if you have a swimming pool, on sunny or warmer days you have to add more to keep the water clear and good.  In these days the evaporation is quite faster.  On colder days (like what we're going through now!!!) you don't have to add to your swimming pool as much.

So healthwise/environmentwise I don't think that there is much difference.

On the other hand...for your health don't abuse any of these products or let it sit for a while so that the evaporation can happen.   The evaporation in a tank/pipes system is not as fast as with a swimming pool 'cause it's open to the air.

My two cents... but don't be shy to correct me...it's my understanding but I might be wrong!!!

Serge

[Steve Hansen]

I understand some municipalities use ozone (O3) as a disinfecting agent rather than chlorine. I also believe that there is a well water treatment some use here in Lancaster County PA which is peroxide based (H2O2). I would contact a water treatment company and see what they say.
Steve

[Andrew Harvey]

In this application, bleach will be more effective and in the grand scheme of things the amount you are using is miniscule.

Andrew

[Stu Jackson]

Please read this thread from a recent discussion: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2918.0

[Jon Schneider]

Cliff- I don't think peroxide and chlorine can be interchanged.  The former works as a cleansing agent through a chemical reaction which causes an oxidizing effect (thus great at cleaning out wounds), but it's unclear to me if that would actually be pervasive enough in the dose you would use to oxigenate the entire fresh water system, nor can we be sure that this oxigenation process would actually kill the perisites we're after.  The latter, chlorine, acts as a poisonous disinfectant (which is probably why you're hesitant about it).  It is persistent (i.e., won't dissapate necessarily in its mission of choking the bacteria) although it will eventually attach itself to atmospheric molecules (think it's the nitrogen in the air, not the oxygen that it attaches itself to).  I believe it is much more effective at killing more of the bacteria than a peroxide treatment could be in similar doses (maybe if you literally half-filled your tanks with peroxide and let it slosh around for a while, that would be as effective as a couple of cups of chlorine, but, of course, that would defeat your purpose.)  My two cents based on very shakey assumptions.

[BillG]

I use hydrogen peroxide to prevent algae growth in my hot tub although it is a 7% concentration, which I think is double that of peroxide that you buy at a drug store.  in addition I use alot more on a regular basis than clorine to be effective.  Given the small amounts of clorine needed to treat your water, I  would stick with that.

[Stu Jackson]

OK, so I'll copy the whole thing again.

I just don't understand a continuing discussion about materials other than recommended, unless there is a good reason to do so.  Peroxide??  I'm no chemist, although some in my high school chemistry classes, like my partners, wish I was better at mixing liquids.   

Please, reconsider reinventing the wheel and unless you can convince us of the improvements you can offer without saying "I heard this somewhere..," or saying this DEFINITELY works for me, just go with the recommendations from someone who really knows her business.

Thanks,

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WATER TREATMENT FOR BOATS

This is regularly re-posted by Peggie Hall on the www.catalinaowners.com website.  I copied it for my own files and reprint it here.  Evidently, adding a little bit'o'bleach every time isn't the appropriate thing to do.  Read on...

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Title: Recommission the system at least annually

"This is all it takes to keep onboard water safe, and tasting/smelling as good as any that comes out of faucets on land: Fresh water system problems--foul odor or taste--are typically caused by allowing water to stagnate in the system. Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places, not under water. Many people—and even some boat manufacturers—believe that keeping the tanks empty reduce the problem, but an empty water tank only provides another damp dark home for those "critters."   There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that's really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing.

The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials.  It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete.  Ice makers should be left running to allow cleaning out of the water feed line; however the first two buckets of ice—the bucket generated during recommissioning and the first bucketful afterward--should be discarded.

1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity.
2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled.  Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines
3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4. Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat.
5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion.
6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water.

People have expressed concern about using this method to recommission aluminum tanks. While bleach (chlorine) IS corrosive, it's effects are cumulative.  So the effect of an annual or semi-annual "shock treatment" is negligible compared to the cumulative effect of holding chlorinated city water in the tank for years. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to mix the total amount of bleach in a few gallons of water before putting it into either a stainless or aluminum tank. People have also expressed concern about the potential damage to rubber and neoprene water pump parts. Again—the cumulative effect of carrying chlorinated water is far more damaging over time than the occasional "shock treatment." And it's that cumulative effect that makes it a VERY bad idea to add a little bleach to each fill.  Not only does it damage the system, but unless you add enough to make your water taste and smell like a laundry, it's not enough to do any good.  Even if it were, any "purifying" properties in chlorine evaporate within 24 hours, leaving behind only the corrosive properties.

An annual or semi-annual recommissioning according to the above directions is all that should be necessary to keep your water tasting and smelling as good as anything that comes out of any faucet on land.  If you need to improve on that, install a water filter. Just remember that a filter is not a substitute for cleaning out the system, and that filters require regular inspection and cleaning or replacement. To keep the water system cleaner longer, use your fresh water...keep water flowing through system. The molds, fungi, and bacteria only start to grow in hoses that aren't being used.

Before filling the tank each time, always let the dock water run for at least 15 minutes first...the same critters that like the lines on your boat LOVE the dock supply line and your hose that sit in the warm sun, and you certainly don't want to transfer water that's been sitting in the dock supply line to your boat's system. So let the water run long enough to flush out all the water that's been standing in them so that what goes into your boat is coming straight from the water main.

Finally, while the molds, fungi and bacteria in onboard water systems here in the US may not be pleasant, we're dealing only with aesthetics...water purity isn't an issue here--or in most developed nations...the water supply has already been purified (unless you're using well-water). However, when cruising out of the country, it's a good idea to know what you're putting in your tanks...and if you're in any doubt, boil all water that's to be drunk or used to wash dishes, and/or treat each tankful to purify. It's even more important in these areas to let the water run before putting it in the tank, because any harmful bacteria will REALLY proliferate in water hoses left sitting on the dock. "

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[Jon Schneider]

Stu- I think the purpose of this discussion board is to "discuss."  Cliff raised a legit question.  I don't think anyone did anything other than weigh it seriously, in addition to giving him avenues to explore.  But then, I generally think that Peggy's advice is full of ... well, you get my drift.  Where does she come up with statements like "Before filling the tank each time, always let the dock water run for at least 15 minutes first"?  What a waste of a natural resource.  And how does she know that 15 minutes worth of wasted fresh water will actually get to a protected source?  Does she know how far down the dock you are?  Or how active the dock is?  Or how warm it is?  Does she even consider any of these issues? 

[Stu Jackson]

Jon

Of course, you're right, and I apologize if my last post appeared perhaps too strident.  I do, however, have concerns about "discussing" chemistry when it comes to the health and safety of our members and anyone else perusing this board.  We can provide all of the opinions we have about boat related material, equipment and experiences, including pictures and stories and references to this and other sources.  I simply submit that "sailing and equipment" exchanges are not as essentially health related.

Cliff's question was legit.  Perhaps I might have responded by simply saying "no, don't think, so,"  but I am not a chemist.  I did, too.

I have a great deal of respect for Peggie for a number of reasons, all professional.  She's been active in her field for quite some time.  Indeed, her discussion of how to work with your "head," (I'll share a "get my drift"...with you here  ) used to be on our site until she wrote her book.  Many of us have contributed here in enough volume to write books, but she's had the diligence and discipline to actually produce one.  You may disagree with her about the dock water, but may want to consider that the issue is not waste of limited natural resources but, as she explains in that same paragraph: " So let the water run long enough to flush out all the water that's been standing in them so that what goes into your boat is coming straight from the water main."  That's the intent -- I know that I don't let 15 minutes go by, because I share your conservation concerns.  It could well be that I am actually introducing the very hose infected microbes that this concept was supposed to have warned me about.

So, again, I agree, Jon, and will keep to sailing rather than chemistry.  When it comes to what is introduced as health related issues (like, don't touch your water hose to your pump out fitting), I tend to lean on institutional references (i.e., "recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code") compared to guesses about mixing or introducing potential noxious liquids into potable water systems, unless the "chemical" qualifications of the respondent are clear and unambiguous.

[David Sanner]

I'm not chemist but I did play one on tv...

No, really.... I have been reading up a bit on h2o and since this thread is
already underway I'll add a couple things.

From the h202 site -> http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#18

- 18. What work has been done on using H2O2 in place of chlorine as a disinfectant for water?

      Compared to chlorine (or ozone, chlorine dioxide, or uv-light), H2O2 is a rather poor disinfectant and
      is not approved as a stand-alone treatment for microbial control in water systems.  ....


So remember don't drink bleach... don't even put it in your mouth, don't drink H202
but feel free to gargle with it just spit it all out.  And if you drink too much wine or rum
or another nautical beverage and scrape your knee, h2o2 works pretty well on that too. 
It also makes a good rocket or torpedo propellant... but I'm no rocket scientist either.


Another source for internet 'information' ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

[Jon Schneider]

An absolutely great link, David.  Fascinating stuff, and a very definitive answer to Cliff's original question.  That said, I'm growing more and more convinced that bourbon is the only way to really purify one's pipes.

[clifford Rieders]

Thanks to all. I am not the slightest bit offended. I tell the people who work for me that the only dumb question is the one not asked ! My question was premised upon the fact that some companies sell alternative bleach with peroxide instead of chlorine.  Reason? Chlorine is bad for the environment whereas peroxide breaks down into harmless components. The latter, as this thread explains, is not as effective but the former takes a lot of water and adds a lot of chlorine to the environment. Cliff c34, #1022, 1990 tall rig

[David Sanner]

Jon, when you say bourbon purifies one's pipes, I assume you mean your pipes not your boats... 
though I'm not sure what you mean by purify   

I've heard of people using cheap vodka to winterize their plumbing... but we
all know how toxic of a substance cheap vodka can be.


Cliff, unless I'm missing something here I wouldn't be too concerned about your
bleach use effects on the environment.  In large industrial situations dumping into
streams I could see a serious issue but bleach is quickly broken down by sunlight and
basically all you have left is water. (Though this is not the case in our sealed
water lines, hence the requirement to rinse thouroughly when cleaning the lines.)


Bleach (chlorine) is so readily broken down by sunlight I got tired of adding it to
my swimming pool and converted to a make-your-own-chlorine saltwater pool.
(low level salt, about 1/8 as salty as the ocean, or 50lbs of salt per 1000 gals of water).

It's a great system, I just added salt when I initially filled the pool a few years back and a low
voltage electrode makes  NaOCl (Sodium Hypochlorite... liquid chlorine) from the table salt (NaCl).
(Similar method used in the marine Electro Scan sanatizing holding tank system)
All I have to do now is run the pump and keep the Ph balanced which is a good
thing because who has time for a pool maintenance when you have a boat!