Second Bilge Pump

[Rick Johnson]

I've checked all the related threads here (thanks Stu), but didn't really find anyone who has installed a second bilge pump.  I have seen several articles lately saying this was a good idea, but I was wondering about the installation.  I asked Catalina about the stringers in the bilge and if I could drill through them to connect a new hose going to a new stern thru-hull.  The response is as follows: "The timbers / stringers were made of wood back then.  They do stiffen the hull and provide support for hull liner.  We do notch them and remove sections in areas for hose and wiring to pass them.  I would look to see if there is room to go outboard and then aft to avoid cutting holes in the timbers.  If you have to add the holes I would go with a 1 5/8" hole saw and then add some layers of glass to seal and reinforce the timbers where the hose passes.".

Has anyone here added a second bilge pump and if so how did you run the outflow hose?

Thanks,

Rick

[Stu Jackson]

Rick

I don't recall this topic coming up, either.

Seem to be two trains of thought here:  one if you're onboard, the  other if you leave your boat for extended periods of time, like most of us do.

Onboard:  We already have two bilge pumps, the manual and the electric (if it was installed).  I considered your concern when we first got our boat, but finally realized that the ONLY good a second pump would do was if it was of a HUGE volume pump.

Leaving the boat unattended:  Sure, the existing pump could die and leave you "defenseless."  The conclusion of most then would most likely be -- "Why is there any water in your bilge at all?"  With dripless stuffing available, what's water doing in your bilge?  If you have a little water in your bilge, and you've spend the night onboard and haven't heard the bilge pump cycle, not much to sweat.  If there's a major catastrophe and you're not there, no second bilge pump of any kind will save the day.

If you install a second pump you could use the same outlet line, but would have to install check valves at both pump outlets.

If you install a second pump with a separate line, put the pump in the aft bilge section and avoid a stringer hole.  You'll need a new through hull at the transom.

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PS  How do I know all this?  Because I went through the same thought process 8 years ago, still have the extra hose and through hull sitting on the boat, unused.   

[Stephen Butler]

We had a situation where the boat was stored at a dock, the float switch failed, there were 12 days of heavy rain, and the bilges started to fill (mast and hatch leaks).  Fortunately, we had arranged with friends to check the boat regularly, and the problem was caught before any harm was done.  Since then, I have wondered if wiring a float switch (and selector switch) to the shower sump pump, might be a reasonable back up system.   I am caught between a philosophy of KISS, and the lurking fear that ALL the bases haven't been covered (which they never are).  Just a thought.

[Rick Johnson]

Well, it's the following story that really got me thing about this!

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm

Cheers

[Ron Hill]

Rick : You could add an extra pump, but I don't think it's necessary.  What you need to do is periodically check the electric and manual pumps that you've got.  I do that once a season by running a dock hose into the bilge and filling it.  I also check the float switch every few weeks.
I also have a 5/8" hose that goes from the center bilge to the area under the sink.  If I ever have to "help" the bilge pump, I can disconnect the engine raw water intake from the thru hull and connect that hose so the engine then gets it's cooling water and "pumps"  the bilge.  Thought it was a good idea to set that up as a "just in case" .   

[Sailor Vic]

Because I don't like the design of our Marelon thru-hull seacock combinations (I found out that should the screw on the handle come off I can have major flooding), as well as the fact that I KNOW that pumps and switches fail, I decided that I "needed" (I suppose need is in the eye of the beholder) an additional bilge pump.

We went with a second auto switch right on top of the original one.

So it's maybe 3" above the first auto switch "on" level.

Which means our 2nd pump won't come on unless our first pump fails or it can't keep up or our first/lower auto switch fails to come on.

We now have an additional hose all the way from the second pump to an extra through-hull (yes, it's right next to the one for the 1st pump).

I feel that if you can afford it, it's always a good policy to practice "better safe than sorry."

[Ron Hill]

Vic : Good idea! 
You might also consider the Gore dripless packing to keep the salt water out of the bilge - as I see it's corroding the keel bolt hardware!!   

[Rick Johnson]

That just what I wanted to do, but haven't yet!  How did you run the new hose?  Do you have more pictures? it seems like cheap insurance to me....

[David Sanner]

I've been thinking about installing a small 2nd pump and plumb it into the sink line (looping above the waterline/sinks)
so I can pump the bilge lower than I can with my main electric pump.

The problem with my main pump is that the hose runs all the way back to the top of the transom.  I've tried a few different check valves but they all leak eventually (also the check valve impeds the flow considerably).  The problem is that all the water from the hose eventually drains back into the bilge and I'm left with an inch or two of water standing in the bilge.

The advantage is that I would have a 2nd pump to help out just in case, my larger main pump wouldn't be
restricted by (the semi-useless) check valve, and I could pump the bildge down much lower and then
dry it out by hand if I'm going to be on it for a day or two.  (keeps the slime, moisture, smell down)

Unless someone has found a check valve that doesn't leak with back pressure on it I may put this on
my todo list... down a ways of course.

[Ron Hill]

Guys : I didn't catch it at the first look at Vic's picture, but I believe that you're better off with a "SMOOTH inside" hose for your bilge pump.  A thought   

[Tom Soko]

David,
I did what you are considering on my C36.  I kept the large primary bilge pump as a direct run back to the transom with 1.125" smooth-bore hose.  For a smaller pump, I installed a 500 GPH pump in the lowest part of the bilge, with its own float switch and wiring.  From the smaller pump I went to an anti-siphon loop up next to the galley sink with .75" hose.  From there .5" smooth-bore hose goes back to its own thru-hull at the transom.  The anti-siphon loop is high enough to be above the waterline at all times.  When the large pump cycles off, a fairly large amount of water runs back into the bilge.  When the small pump cycles off, only a cup or so runs back into the bilge.  The small pump keeps the bilge drier and takes care of annoying little leaks.  The large pump is for times you don't want to think about.  I also don't trust check valves.  Hope this helps.

[Ken Juul]

POs installed a second pump in Luna Loca.  Seperate float switch.  Instead of running the hose out the stern they ran the 1/2" line to a Tee just before the A/C exhaust water through hull.  The bilge line has a "anti flow" loop to prevent back flow of A/C water entering the bilge.

[jfssail]

I installed a second bildge pump this spring and have been very happy with it. I used a Rule 500GPH automatic pump(checks for water every 2.5 minutes) and a Rule 3-way panel switch with fuse (auto-off-manual).  I wired the switch directly to my windlass battery. To reduce backflow I went with 5/8 water hose and made a connection to the transom. Put a loop in the line near the pump, no check valve.  This arrangement pumps the bildge down to 1/2 inch and has little back flow. Battery drain is minimal with voltage drop on the battery less than 0.1 v after a week.
For less than $100 I have an excellent back up system that keeps my bildge almost dry.
I intend to use this system untill a hard freeze occurs to keep my bildge dry while on the hard. I  get over 6-12 inches of water entering down the mast in early winter and spring. Now I have to find a 12v temperature switch so I don't have to make a 2 1/2 hour drive to the boat each month during the winter to check the bildge.

Jack F Stewart
1993 C36 #1233 "Windancer"
Port Clinton, OH

[Sailor Vic]

You asked how my second hose was run.

Right next to the first one.  It fit (barely) all the way along side the original one.

I agree, smooth hose is best due to a lot less resisance.  Mine is corrugated hose on the outside......but smooth on the inside.


Yes, the rust was caused when my packing was leaking (right from the start when I received my new boat it leaked quite a bit).

I do like the idea of dripless and wanted to get that during my first haulout (2 weeks ago).

I asked my diesel mechanic his opinion as I respect his expertise.  He suggested against it, and he felt that with additional teflon packing that most of the dripping would stop and for me not to go dripless as he feels that it adds other issues as far as he was concerned. 

Since he added the additional teflon packing the dripping is almost non existant and so I decided to do what he recommended and not go with dripless.

As far as a check valve that absolutely doesn't leak?  They do exist, I actually sell them  (I have been a plumbing supplier/distributor for many years) but as I understand it from a number of mechanics, a bilge pump is not designed to have them after the pump.

[jmnpe]

A little more fuel for the fire...

In the 8 years of owning a Stamas 44 ketch, I got to see some fairly heavy duty usage of the bilge pump systems. First of all, the head from the bilge to the outlet was on the order of 7 feet, and both the bilge and the gray water ( which included condensate from 32,000 btu of A/C ) collections were actively pumped out through one way valves. Additionally, the showers drained into the bilge, so during 3 or 4 years of living aboard 5 days a week everything got a good workout. Statistically, I replaced bilge switches (Rule) more often than pumps (also Rule). I never replaced a one way valve, and never had one leak.

For long distance security, I would now feel more comfortable with the "automatic" pumps rather than switches plus pumps as long as you have either a charger on most of the time or have a relatively large battery bank to work from. A helpful boat neighbor with an idea of were your bootstripe should be is priceless, too.