Leeway/drifting

[Momentum M]

I bought a new Cat 34 Mk-II last year and took delivery last June  (2005).  It's a standart mast (my salesrep told me that their's no more tall & reg mast as the difféRance is so small that they - Catalina- don't bother with it no more...but I'm not sure if it's true!!) with a wing keel and in Mast furling (anniversary edition).  I've read a lot on this site and learned a lot.  I want to thanks all the past and previous contributors....what a mine of informations!!!

Now the question:  When I'm on approach to a dock I find the boat almost "unsteerable".  I normally proceed very very slowly (unless the wind request a stronger approach) 'cause I find that when I turn the wheel the boat doesn't respond.  It seems to me that the weight vs the keel is not equilibrated.  I have a gut feeling that when Catalina make a wing keel...they just have the bottom end of the keel cut of...they add the wing for weight and that's it!!!!  They don't change they upper part of the keel.....it's the same as far as attachment to the hull. 
Now what happends to the square inches (or feet) that it's cut off.  I think that they should add more "meat" to compensate for that lost.....something (in length) between a fin keel and a shoal keel.
So by converting the keel...they chop off some surface...add approx 1000lbs (of ballast) more than a fin keel and wish you good luck!!!!
I've been asking around since I got the boat and everyone that I spook to find this very strange.
At my marine, I have to Buddy's (Cat 32 & Cat 36) and they don't have this problem.  As soon as the boat is back in the water, they'll both try my boat and see if it's me or the concept of the boat.
This boat was an upgrade from a C&C 27 and what a difference in handling.  With that C&C I could do anything and it responded so well to the well.  I realise that the boats aren't in the same category....and that one is almost 3 times heavier.....but in my mind, if I decide to turn the well I expect the boat to react to a certain point...but as it is now....virtually no reaction.
Maybee it's part of the learning/getting use to....but until I get enough experience (if that's the problem) I get quite a sweat everytime I'm approaching a dock.

Hopefully I gave enough informations....., sorry for being long and excuse my mistakes since I'm french speaking.
Anyone with the same feeling?

Thanks to all

Carole & Serge Cardinal
Cat34Mk-II - 1719
Montréal, Québec, Canada
But I sail on Ontario Lake

carolecardinal@sympatico.ca

Nb.:  My boat....I named it "Momentum"....coincidence!!!!

[Stu Jackson]

Carole & Serge

Welcome.

You have an aptly named boat, "Momentum," however, that's not what you need to be able to approach a dock or anything else.  You wrote:  "'cause I find that when I turn the wheel the boat doesn't respond."  That's NOT because of the keel, but because with little motion the RUDDER simply cannot work.

I remain amazed at how many people still mention their concerns about both prop walk and lack of responsiveness when their boats are going at what amount to ZERO speed.

Your mention that "I normally proceed very very slowly (unless the wind request a stronger approach)," indicates to me that you may need to consider being more assertive in your approaches.

If the boat is not moving, the rudder cannot steer.

What I suggest you do, before you try to speed into your own dock, is to find a safe and clear SIDE TIE dock.  I did this when we first got 'Aquavite' (after 11 years with a C25), to learn how to dock her.  I don't know what your docking situation is, but we have a double finger dock.  I ignore one side of the dock and use the other side as if it were a side tie.  In any event, find a safe side tie and keep practicing bringing your boat up to the dock and stopping it where YOU want the boat to be.  Do that over and over again.  Then, you can do all the practicing you need to at your own dock.

The trick is to lean how to place the boat where YOU want it to be, which can, and NEEDS to be done with decent speed (at least 1.5 knots in most cases).  A short burst of reverse is very useful.  As you learn, you'll find that you no longer need to have 13 people jump off the boat to fend it off, YOU do it right from the throttle and wheel. 

Because of the port prop walk, you will find that when you approach a side tie port side to, when you reverse the prop, it will pull the stern of the boat toward the dock.  This is very useful.

Also, when leaving your dock, you need to consider using a short burst of reverse to get the boat moving so the rudder can do its job.  If you back out slowly, by only placing the transmission in reverse at idle throttle, you inevitably go to port because of the prop walk and because you are simply NOT going fast enough for the rudder to work.

With your new Mark II boat you also have the benefit of the bigger improved rudder, compared to our older Mark I boats with the original rudder.  Because I started by practicing, even with the old rudder. we learned to make the boat do what we want her to do (politely, of course ).

I know that this takes discipline:  you need to take a day away from simply having a nice sail on the Lake and spend this valuable time practicing, even with your prior experience.  I know, been there, done that.

The slower you go the LESS responsive the wheel will be.

It has NOTHING to do with the keel.

[Momentum M]

Thanks again Stu for your good input!!!  You are really involved with this forum and do put the effort in answering as many post as you can.  You do a lot of research for us and your so helpfull with all the links that you do post and your comments/experience that you have as a sailor!!!
Cheers.   

I suspected for a while that I wasn't aggressive enough and you just confirm that.

On the other hand, my Marina buddy (Cat 32 - 2000) that is also my boat yard neighbour went to check on our boats yesterday (side by side on cradles) and he reported that my keel is smaller than is (32 VS 34).  Next time down to the boats I'll take measurements and will report my finding.

I'd like to ear from owners of the same era/model than mine how they find their boats handling.

Regards to all

Carole & Serge
Momentum M
Cat 34 Mk-II 2005
1719

[David Arnold]

Carole & Serge,
I too have a 2005 (hull # 1707) standard rig with fin keel.  Stu is correct; with very little or no forward motion there is no steerage.  It has nothing to do with the keel or the rudder but the lack of motion.  Be more aggresive when docking and I think you will find your difficulties decrease while your confidence increases.

Good luck!

[Stu Jackson]

Serge, you wrote: "On the other hand, my Marina buddy (Cat 32 - 2000) that is also my boat yard neighbor went to check on our boats yesterday (side by side on cradles) and he reported that my keel is smaller than is (32 VS 34).  Next time down to the boats I'll take measurements and will report my finding."

It might be helpful to look at the specs for the two boats on the Catalina Yachts website.

C320   4'-4" or 6'-3"  (shoal or fin keel)

C34     4'-3"  or 5'-7"

The length of the boat bears no direct relationship to the underwater appurtenances.

[Momentum M]

Thanks again guys for your input...much appreciated   

By bringing this subject I was "testing" to see if I was the only one with this feeling.  I appreciate the fact that a boat needs motion in order to be steerable...I guest it's the same with a car in neutral!!!!
I've used the boat from June to the end of September and I've managed so far but I was wondering if others were experiencing the same thing.....and when compared with my C&C...lets say that the difference is big.

I'll get more experience this summer and will try my friends boats..and I'll have them try mine.

Regards
Carole & Serge
Cat 34 Mk-II
2005 - 1719

[Ron Hill]

Serge : As others have mentioned the steerage of any vessel is a function of the amount of water that passes over the rudder's surface.  There are two other variables and they are the rudder surface area and the speed of the boat. The more surface area the better the steerage at lower speeds.
You have the elliptical rudder and a wing keel (I say wing, because it's a factor in the rudder surface area) I have the same configuration as you.  I approach a dock in a no wind condition at more than 2 knots, but not much less than 1 knot speed. In my boating area we also have tide (current) as a factor.
You'll have to get the feel of the boat and with experience dock comfortably. 
The keel is only a function - as the full keels usually have rudders with more surface area (deeper rudder)!!   
Practice docking makes perfect!!  Good luck   

[Jim Price]

Serge:  To continue, I have the fin but not the new elliptical rudder on my 1991 model.  I am in a well protected but only 14' wide slip (little wind if any) and no current.  I normally turn 90 degrees into the slip about 2 boat lengths out at a rate of about 1.8 knots (GPS).   The quick turn rubs off some speed but I still have control and when boat is about half way into slip, I use reverse to control stop.  I have turned at over 2 knots with a little head wind but no problem, the reverse on our boats will surprise you at how quickly you can stop.  I also have a 3-blade and that helps.

As all have said, don't go too slow.  Reverse will get you out of a lot of trouble quickly (don't forget the port prop walk), but with no headway forward, loosing control is much easier and recovery can be disastrous in the slip area.

[Momentum M]

I'm puzzled!!!!  I've been to my boat to remove the cover...and while I was there I decided to compare (while on the hard) with my neighbour. 
My findings:  The 320 as 11" more of depth comparing to mine.  Now I find it strange that the draft on these two boats are within one inch of the other but on hard...measuring there's close to a foot!!!
Granted....the measurement of the keel...from bow to stern is longer on the C 34 but why such a difference.
I've taken pictures of the keel with a measuring tape attached to it. 

I would like to hear from owners of similar boat (ie: C34 Mk-II, wing keel and if possible in Mast furling) and of the same era (mine: 2005 - 1719) and hopefully that the boat is still on hard.
What I'd like to do is send them the pictures to see how I measured and report to me.  I'm positive that no more that 5 minutes is needed 'cause there's only two dimensions to take.  Now if a picture can be taken...well this would be more than super.

Has anyone ever hear of a Catalina boat that was mounted with the wrong keel????

I'm not saying that it's the case..but I'd like to kill this idea for good (hopefully 'cause I don't know how they would react if this is the case) and I would hate to have this new boat strip of it's keel in order to install a new one...

If the other owner are in the same "boat" than me..than I'll have to continue to practice.

I would really appreciate any help
Thanks to all again
Carole & Serge Cardinal
carolecardinal@sympatico.ca

[Susan Ray]

What was the question again? Your keel is what depth? Your draft isn't just the keel.......what are you comparing?.

[Momentum M]

What I'm saying is that the 320 & 34 are quite similar in size.  They boat have similar draft so my deduction is that both keel should be roughly the same!!!  I know that "draft" ain't just the keel but I'm trying to compare between the 2 boats.  Why such a difference?
I'm just trying to see if it's the captain's fault or a flaw in design.
I've requested from my dealer either a blue print or a drawing with some dimensions.
I might be in the field but I just want to have my mind clear on this issue.
Serge
2005- C 43 Mk II - 1719
In mast furling, wing keel
carolecardinal@sympatico.ca

[Stu Jackson]

Serge

The most effective thing you can do is to CALL the Factory and speak to Gerry Douglas about the issue you have perceived.

There is little, if anything, this group can do for you in answer to your question, since we are not familiar with the C320's construction or details.

As much as we'd like to help in more detail, please go directly to the builder with your questions.

[Momentum M]

Thanks Stu for your reply and the contact at Catalina.  It's certainly a good start.
But before I contact him I'd like to do my homeworks 'cause whatever he says...if I haven't done my homework...I'll have to buy that.

I took the opportunity of this forum to report my findings but what I really want is this:

I need to be in contact with someone with a similar boat (see above in another post) so that I can send him my pictures of my keel....have him measure the same way I did (2 measures) and report back to me.  That's all.

I would really appreciate if a volunteer would contact me.

Also....in previous post, I might have wrongly explain my demand but I'm French speaking so maybee my explanations aren't the best.

Thanks to all...and hopefully someone will do me this little favor.

Serge
carolecardinal@sympatico.ca
C34 Mk II - 2005 - 1719

[Stu Jackson]

Serge

You ideas are very clear.  I recommend posting your pictures and measurements right here on this board, unless you can find someone directly or through this forum who's willing and able to help you.  I think all of us are interested in the concept, however, while similar in size, the two boats may very well have completely different under bodies and rigs, therefore different centers of efforts, thus requiring different keels.

If you're concerned that you got the wrong keel, then by all means followup with your dealer.  Rainbow's point about measuring the depth from the waterline is important, also.

[ken003]

Serge,

I have hull #1715 wing keel.  I would glady take the measurements you want, but my boat is 800 miles away.  I am going there april 18 to uncover and work on it, but would not be able to get back to you for a couple weeks.  I found the C34 to be easily handled.  I say this with nothing to compare it to.  My previous boat was a pearson 30, 10 hp diesel, bad transmission, on a mooring, very very little docking.  When I got the C34 my wife and I immediately took it through the champlain/erie canal and many marinas to the north channel of lake huron.  I thought it handled very well.  Give me the measurements you need and I will get back to you when I can. 

Good luck this summer,
Ken