AC & Power questions - Reverse Polarity Flix

[Doug]

I bought an '87 last Summer and have some electrical questions.

While sitting on the boat hooked up to shore power I had a hand on the faucet and a fore arm against one of the Steel rods that connect to the rigging. I'm sure I felt a very slight shock, although no one else on the boat could feel it. The boats essentially put away for the Winter, so I haven't taken a mulitester down to check it yet.

After reading some of the older posts, I've concluded I need to change the charger.  Not sure what's in there now, but I'm sure it's the original unit.

Questions:

1) Is there a recommended charger? I currently have 2 Batteries in the boat, and am considering either an isolated starter battery or a portable "jump start" type battery pack for a back up to start the engine.  


2) Reverse Polarity light: It's always on (lit) on my boat, but I can't find info telling me if that means polarity is reversed or normal. She doesn't trip the breaker and the AC all works with the light on.

3) GFI Outlets: The boat has none, and I was planning on changing at least the ones in the head and galley. Would it be prudent to change them all?

4) Owner labor: After reading and hearing "that could kill you" I need to ask if this is an owner thing or should I hire someone. I'm fairly handy and have wired houses and DC systems on previous (smaller) boats.

[willie]

I can answer a couple of your questions.

The reversed polarity should not be lit. that means you have a ground fault and you are leaking ac to ground, thats why your getting shocked. This will need to be diagnosed.

All your outlets are in series so you only need to install one GFI at the nav station.

If you are not confortable with AC wiring I would get help but, if you work on it don't have your shore power hooked up

[Ron Hill]

Doug : Let me see if I can answer your questions:

1.  There is no recommend shore power charger per say.  A good one written up by Practical Sailor is the Zantrex 20.  It can charge 3 banks.  You might look at it - best price is probably in Defender Marine.
2.  The reverse polarity light should NOT be on all the time.  The 1987 boats should have their shore power (AC) breaker changed out to a single throw double pole 30 amp breaker. 
3.  GFI outlets - The 1987 boats have 2 separate runs of outlets.  I believe one run is the head, aft cabin, galley and the other is remainder of the salon and Vberth outlets.  You need to look at your DC wire diagram in your owners manual.  You only need to place a GFI in the first outlet and all the other down stream are protected.  If my recall is correct that would be the Head and Nav table outlets, but again check you manual !!
4.  If you're "fairly handy" and have wired houses and other boats - you should be able to handle the job yourself.  If in doubt ask an electrician. 
5.  In 1988 and subsequent production years the AC and DC wiring CHANGED.   

[Roc]

Doug,
Practical Sailor had an article about battery chargers several months ago.  You might want to search out that article to find out about the best charger.  Xantrex was tested and rated well.  I have the Xantrex (Statpower) 40 and it works well. 

[Stu Jackson]

Doug

Welcome aboard.

This site (The Message Board) has a pretty good search engine.  For some reason, the way the URLs work, I can't post the "results" of searches for you to give you a quick link.

However, please use the search engine for separate searches on the words "charger" and "Redux" and "GFI" or "GFCI" - most of your questions have been discussed.  Start there.  If you need more info, please let us know.

Use the Manual that came with your boat, if you don't have one, download it from ww.c34.org, left side index.  It has a wiring diagram.  Only the first outlet of a chain needs to be a GFI to protect the downstream outlets.  Check your own wiring to confirm.  I put one in th head and one in the V berth.  I could have put one in the nav station, but chose to install the GFIin the head (with an exterior grade cover).  The only outlet NOT GFI-protected on our boat is the nav station.

As far as your electrical "leak" it's impossible to tell without visiting the boat - you have some connection somewhere that is letting current run through.  It's the very first time I've heard  of this condition on a C34.

[Stu Jackson]

Doug,

REVERSE POLARITY

In addition, do a search on the words "reverse+polarity."  Those topics should answer your question.  The easiest thing to do is to go to a hardware store and buy a reverse polarity indicator (cheaper than WM).  Just plug it in to one of your outlets.

[Footloose]

Doug,

This may sound obvious, but after you buy the circiut tester start at the marina outlet and work your way through the connections until you find the fault.  Also look for water dripping on a wire.  Last fall I had a small leak under the galley sink that ran into the water heater wiring.  Fixing that cleared up my shore power problems.

Good Luck.  Sometimes you may think that the electrons are disappearing into thin air, but they aren't.  Most likely when you find the problem it will be glaring.

Dave

[SteveLyle]

Re: the GFI outlets.  As has been said, you just need to do the first one in the circuit.  How many circuits do you have?  My recommendation is to go by the actual wiring of your boat - i.e., don't trust your manaul, and don't trust that your boat matches somebody else's '87.  It's a simple matter to open the panel up, and test the outlets.

FWIW (obviously, given the above, nothing) my '86 had 3 circuits that needed updating - one at the Nav station, one in the vberth that was the first in a string that went down the port side (vberth, fwd salon, galley, aft cabin), and one in the head.

[Jeff_McKinney]

How old and decrepit is your shore power cable? Depending on the design of the plug, amount of flexing, etc, the problem may lie in this item. If the power outlet is OK don't forget to test the polarity, etc. of the cable when it's hooked up to the outlet.

Good luck, and be careful with the wiring. 

[Stu Jackson]

Doug

More REVERSE POLARITY. 

I went to the boat today and took these photos.  This is our AC panel.  We have two lights, normal and reverse.  Your panel MAY BE, and probably is[/u], different.  This is an obvious question, but it could be that the "normal" lights are on - I must admit that until I studied boat electrical systems, I was mystified by this.  It means that the neutral (white) wiring and the black (positive?) wiring are reversed.  Without going into detail, it means stuff on AC will work, but it has a potential for harm - please read any electrical book, like Don Casey or Nigel Calder.  If you don't have Calder's book, I highly recommend it.  Could be the best $50 (less probably on ebay) that you'll ever spend on your boat.

I agree with Jeff that you should check the system all the way to the "starting point" at the shorepower inlet.  Because the shorepower inlet is most likely in your port locker, the back of it could have been subject to damage by stuff"" moving around in the locker (don't know what you have in there).  Also check if the blades of your cord are marred, which would indicate that there is some shorting going on there.  A clean contact on all blades is important.

A "Search" on "GFI" and "GFCI" may help, too.

[Stu Jackson]

Photo 2 below

Reverse Polarity:

There are three A.C. wires: black (hot), white (Neutral) and green (ground).

ON SHORE the neutral and ground are tied together. NEVER on a boat. It's pretty simple.

The AC and DC green grounds are connected on a boat.

Reverse polarity is when the HOT and NEUTRAL are reversed, usually at the dockside by, as Maine Sail has written, Darrryl & his other brother Darryl. It is rarely wrong on a boat unless the PO has snafued his own work.

Reverse polarity is measured between the neutral and ground wire ON THE BOAT with the neon glow lamps with the 25K ohm resistors. However, what they are telling you, regardless of how this is done, is that you have the HOT and NEUTRAL reversed. That's why we recommend that everyone just go down to their ACE hardware store and buy one of those simple plug-in testers. That avoids any confusion about RP. F'rinstance, in our boat we have THREE RP lights, two are indicating NORMAL and means everything is OK. When the third light comes on: PROBLEM!!! Confuses some people. SOME FOLKS ONLY HAVE ONE LIGHT SO WHEN IT COMES ON IT MEANS a PROBLEM.

[Doug]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I relied too much on memory and was wrong. The reverse polarity light is off and the normal lights are on.

What's the deal with the ON/OFF switch. Does it reverse polarity if there's a shore power problem?

I took my multi tester down and tested stray current between various points: Faucet & mast, Shore power inlet & stanchions, charger and wheel. There is definitely some stray electrons running around.

Until I Carry out some repairs I've disconnected the shore power, which means my heat and fridge are also off.

I've decided to replace:

1. Shore power inlet and wiring: Cap is bent and inlet may be worn. Wire in lazerette looks short.

2. Charger: The thing on the boat is old, big, and probably leaking power. Looking at the Xantrex 20 or 40

3. Outlets as needed to added GFI to all outlets in the cabin.

Once safe wiring is in, I can start upgrading lights!

[Stu Jackson]

Doug

The Master ON/OFF Switch is just that.  Once you plug into shore power, that's the switch that opens the AC current anything on board that's AC.

Plug in, switch off, no power to outlets or your heater.  Switch on, heater works and so do outlets and anything else connected to AC.

Here's an updated AC manual for our 1986 boat.  The manual was WRONG!!  (You'll probably have to blow it up in your photo shop program, the file size was too big before I re-sampled the image.)

[Ron Hill]

Doug :  Reread my post.  What you should consider doing beside adding 2 GFIs, is to install a "single throw double pole" 30 amp breaker for your on/off AC shore power. 
It was the ABCYA ruling that caused Catalina to change to that in 1988!!  If you ever have your boat surveyed, that's the first thing in electrical that will be mentioned.   A thought.