Rudder removal

[Bruce Hanson]

This week we plan on dropping our rudder when in the sling. I have read previous posts on this subject and noticed no mention of the need to loosen the packing. Will the post slip out or do I need to relieve some compression load on packing?

[Jeff Kaplan]

bruce, i attempted the same project this past weekend, unfortunately with no luck. spoke to kent at catalina tech dept. and he told me to loosen the packing gland and repack it when completed. read the recent posts, ron gave great tips. i removed the doghouse and aft cabin panel to give more room to work. loosened the double nuts on the eyebolts and removed the quad. thru bolt nut.proceeded to climb into the rear locker to remove the 4 quad. bolts and remove the thru bolt. don't remove the emer. tiller cap bolt till the end and out of water. sprayed the bolts with pen. oil and managed to loosen 2 of the 4 bolts.could not remove the other 2 of free the thru bolt. applied heat from a propane torch and still no luck. after smashing my hands and arms ,as the socket,9/16 6pt. ,kept slipping, i decided that before i do more damage to my self, this was a job for a pro.i usually do as much maintenance myself as possible, but this proved too much. as kent told me and so did the mech., sometimes on older boats, mine is 1986 #219, that the quad. and post become one and must be cut off. i told him to do whatever was necessary and also to replace the bronze pulley pins with stainless and to rewire if necessary. also the emer. tiller cap is cracked and must be replaced so if need, break it. sometimes the best laid plans must be shelved and given to someone who does this for a living. hopefully yours will come right apart, but if not... good luck...jeff kaplan

[Bruce Hanson]

Thanks for the reply Jeff, Yesterday the marina pulled the boat without me being there. They already knew I wanted it out so they removed it for me. I had already loosened cables, removed LP bottle, shelf and misc stuff around quadrant. I had given the area where shaft passes thru quadrant 2 liberal squirts of LPS so when they removed both bolts the unit slid right out. They did not have to loosen either quadrant half hardware or packing retention ring. Maybe being a fresh water boat is the difference between us. I am not familiar with the bronze pins you referred to, can you give me more details on location and function? I noticed a large pin in quadrant which is meant to provide a stop at full travel. This pin requires a new piece of rubber hose, functioning as a cushion at max travel. This winters project is a repair per the many write-ups. I am thinking of repainting the rudder with some aircraft urethane (2-part) I have leftover. Has anyone tried Awl Grip underwater?

[Ted Pounds]

Bruce,

I don't believe AwlGrip is made for below waterline use.  In any event what you want to use is a good barrier coat such as Interprotect or VC-Tar.  VC-Tar is the way to go if you paint with VC-17.  Interprotect will do for all else.  What kind of repairs are you doing to the rudder?  If you have water infiltration you might consider sending it back to the factory to be re-cast.   On earlier models, like mine, the 'webbing' was plain steel and prone to rust.   When the factory opened mine up they said it was well on its way to failure   .   You should find out if yours has the stainless steel webbing.  Also if you do have water inside it's very difficult to get  it dry without opening up the whole rudder.  If you  leave some water inside it will freeze, expand and do more damage.  Just a few thoughts...

[Jeff Kaplan]

bruce, you lucked out bigtime. probably is the fresh water as to my salt. the bronze pulley pins can only be seen if you remove the doghouse on the aft panel in the rear quarters. when you take this off you will be looking right at the pulleys, and the pins hold the pulley onto the housing. maybe in your year boat they are already ss, in which case you luck out again. as last post said, awlgrip is for topside. i just got off the phone with gerry douglas at catalina and he told me to first tip the rudder over to see if any water comes out. tip back up right and pour some acetone in to act as a drying agent. than try and dry rudder out and then pour some penetrating type of west epoxy into post just below thru quad. bolt hole. the epoxy will seep in and fill any voids and possibly come out where the rust is leaking out. this would be ideal. pour in as much as needed but stay below the quad bolt hole.  as the last post also rightly said that in the older boats, the metals in the rudder is steel mesh, replaced with ss in later models. i'm going to drill a few holes in for inspection if i notice much rust bleeding out of the leading edge. than i will get a better idea if i have to ship back to catalina. gerry said that if the post isn't loose into the rudder, filling with the epoxy should solve my problem. good luck...jeff

[Ron Hill]

Bruce : I doubt if your year boat has the stainless mesh.  Do as Jerry Douglas said, except use alcohol (acetone won't assimilate water).  Do it a number of times.  I used a slow drying epoxy so it would seep all of the way in.  Drill a few holes in your rudder sides (fwd/aft of the column & in the bottom) and see if any water comes out.

Then you need to seal the outside - where the stainless column enters the Rudder lay up.  Take a V can opener and grove out the area on the the outside of the column/rudder down at least 1/4".  Clean it with acetone/lacquer thinner.  Then seal that grove with 3M 5200.  After it's set for a day press the nylon bushing down on the top of the 5200 and push it down slightly - don't squirt it all out!!  
What you've done is seal the inside and the outside of where the rudder column enters the rudder lay up.

Remove the dog house and you'll see where the cables change direction 90 degrees (up to the wheel) and the idler wheel pulleys that the cables go over.  The bronze pins that need to be removed are the ones that hold the pulleys in place - your boat my already have the stainless pins (1989 and later).

Use an epoxy barrier coat to protect the rudder - something like Interlux 2000.

A few thoughts.  

[Jeff Kaplan]

bruce, ron was right when he said to use alcohol to dry out rudder, not acetone. jerry told me to use alcohol, i mistakenly said acetone. i applied 3m 5200 to the area that ron mentioned before boat was put in water begining of season, per jerry.rudder was attached so i used a small acid brush to get 5200 under the washer and around post. when the rudder is dropped, i will see if that helped keep water out. .jeff

[Bruce Hanson]

Thanks again for all responses. Last winter I drilled holes up and down one side of rudder, I got a rapid drip at first which slowed to a seep lasting into the spring. I did the 5200 trick on shaft entry area and fiberglassed holes. When I sanded the area around holes it revealed a vertical crack which was likely caused from previous freezing of contained water. I did a quick surface repair to crack and slapped a coat of ablative blue and went sailing (our first whole summer with boat) I really did not worry about structural integrity based on every thing I have read but I knew the project was not finished. So this winter I plan on removing a large section around crack area and doing a visual inspection of ribs and post. If all looks good then I will fill cavity with epoxy and paint. Also worth noting for anyone planning on filling their tube with Great Stuff while the rudder installed. First, do it during warm temperatures, I did it in the fall and the stuff shrunk down to almost nothing the first week. Second, take extra care to prevent contact with nonskid surfaces, it has taken most of summer to remove all traces.

[Bruce Hanson]

Jeff- Here is the rest of the story: yesterday I spoke with the technician who actually removed rudder and found he did have to loosen quadrant split half bolts.  He also loosened the upper plate on packing unit. I now have the rudder home for the season. After I remove a section of skin I will  photograph interior and try to post on this board. I remember last fall not getting to any hollow areas with my drill bit forward of shaft. Has anyone found any cavities in the leading edge areas? When I give it the "tap" test it all seems solid.  When I build up the new section of skin with fiberglass can anyone comment on the need to finish with a gel coat? I did not put a gelcoat on the small drill hole repairs and they seem to have held up fine over a single season. Also of interest is the ease with which I was able to remove the 5200 sealant from shaft entry area. From all the posts on this product I would have thougth the stuff was bullet proof. We sanded and cleaned surface with MEK prior to application. I think it was still providing a watertight seal however with a sharp putty knife it came right off!

More to follow

[Stephen Butler]

It seems that rudders are the "in" topic, which is fortunate for us.  We have a 1990, # 1023, std keel and rig that has just gone through Wilma.  The boat survived, except for the rudder, which I am told is totalled.  We would sure appreciate some advice on the  following: 1) a new rudder from Catalina will run us $1287 plus shipping, while a recast rudder will run us $685 plus shipping both ways (Florida to Calif to Florida) and some extra yard time.  It works out to be pretty close either way, so we would probably go with a new rudder.  However, how well would a new rudder "fit" our boat?  Would we have to make adjustments?  Would it be an easier replacement if the old rudder was recast?  2) While the rudder needs addressing, what other rudder associated parts should we order?  Tiller cap, washer, packing, etc. While not wanting to spend money unnecessarily, if we are replacing a major component, why not also do the bits and pieces?  Your thoughts and advice are appreciated.

By the way, the marina told me that their wind speed indicator registered sustained wind of 125 mph, with gusts above 150mph.  They also had 2 storm surges...an 8 footer from the Atlantic side and a 12 footer from the Gulf side.  We are on the hard and except for the rudder and some scraps, seem to be in one piece.  Very very lucky...and a very strong boat.  Sure hope others came out as well. 

[Stu Jackson]

this continues at:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2459.0

[Jeff Kaplan]

bruce, just wanted to give an update as to my proceedure. mechanic did loosen the quad, don't need to replace. we hauled the boat today and dropped the rudder, came out smooth. upon initial inspection, didn't notice much water leaking out but i did notice a lot of corrision on the post as it enters the blade. removed the washer that i set with 3m 5200 easily, and saw several deep pits into the stainless. going to call catalina to get shipping instructions so they can inspect, and probably replace. i think this was a good call to drop rudder as the damage will only get worse as time goes on.will keep all posted. happy halloween...jeff kaplan