Electrical Upgrade

[ken003]

I am taking possession of a new C34 MKll in a couple of weeks.  I plan on partially upgrading the electrical system following all the posted information from this forum (Balmar 80 amp alternator, MC-612 regulator, DDC-12 dual charger).  I will keep the two 4D batteries as a house bank.  I wanted to add a starting battery (AGM).  In this new boat the area under the aft cabin on either side of the prop shaft is taken up on the port side by the exhaust muffler and on the starboard side by the raw water intake filter and the primary fuel filter (This does not seem like a good place for these filters).  I could go further back and straddle the prop shaft aft of the stuffingbox/stern tube.  Would there be any problems with this?  Also the raymarine flux compass is located here, only 6-8 inches from where the battery would be.  Should I look for a different location?  I was wondering how long Catalina had been placing these filters in this compartment and how other people have managed them.  They are not easily accessed.  I was planning on using the AGM battery because of low maintenance, but it seems I may have to dig back into this area more than I had planned.  The compartment with the raw water intake thru-hull to starboard could possibly hold a battery but I have not measured it.

Also,  the boat comes with a shore power Charles 30 amp charger.  Do I connect it to each of the battery banks?  Will there be a problem using shore power for charging each of the battery banks with the Duo Charger connected between them?

Thanks for any help or advice,
Ken

[Stu Jackson]

Ken

Please add your boat # and year to your signature.

1.  Start Battery location - There are different trains of thought on this.  Some believe that having it as close as possible is better.  Others feel that the heat isn't worth it and bigger wires allow placement forward of the starboard water tank.  Your boat, your choice.  I have four batteries, 2 in the compartment, two in the area forward, under the saloon seat.  Three batteries are the house bank, one is the start bank.  Many have put four Trojans in the battery compartment and placed the start battery forward of the water tank.  Those are the options.  I know AGMs are supposed to be "maintenance free" but you still have to check the posts from time to time, so out of sight out of mind is an issue.  Remember to leave clearance to get to your stuffing box if you put the start bank aft.  The Projects page has pictures and descriptions by Mark Elkin of his installation, if you haven't seen that yet.

2.  Charles charger and connections - Please check out your charger to find out if it is "really" a three stage charger.  Some of the Charles' are not.  For a reference source, please read:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=605.0

With multiple charger outputs, the answer to your question is: depends on how it's wired, or how YOU intend to do so.  Take a look at the Projects page on the main website.  There are two new electrical posts of great interest.  If the Duo Charge takes multiple outputs and splits them between the house and start banks, then the duo charger essentially becomes a positive distribution post (PDP) and all you need is one connection from the charger to there, and then it (the duo charge) will "distribute" the charge to the two banks.  The instructions with the duo charge should cover that situation.  You need to find out in the duo charge instructions whether or not it will be harmed if there are multiple charger outputs "around" the duo charge.

MIXING BATTERY TYPES

Ken, you're mixing an AGM with your existing wet cells.  Please read the instructions with your charger and find out if the two different types of batteries require different charging voltage regimens.  If they do, don't mix the types or you'll harm one or both.  The West Marine Advisors and most of the battery references we've previously posted will let you know the preferred charging voltages for different types of batteries.  Most alternator regulator documents do so as well, i.e., your regulator's installation instructions will give you the available different settings for charging different bank types.

[SteveLyle]

My understanding is that a major benefit of the Duo Charge is that it allows mixing battery types - and it's the only device of that type (combiners, Echo Charge, Ample Eliminator) that does.  So if your Charles charger can't handle different types (which it almost certainly can't), then wire it to the house bank.  The Duo Charge will then appropriately charge the engine battery from that source, assuming that you configure it appropriately.

[Stu Jackson]

Steve's right.

The Balmar wiring diagram is:

http://www.balmar.net/page20-Duocharge.html

Where the alternator charging wiring goes to the + side of the house bank, just wire one output only from the charger to the same place.  

It is much better to avoid (literally, physically) loading battery connections, and to provide a separate PDP (positive distribution post) and then run only one wire to the house bank connection from the PDP, although in this case if you don't have much else connected there (bilge pump?), then you could put the two sources on the battery post.   You can use a Blue Seas Power Post or Power Post Plus for the PDP.

Just remember to disconnect your shorepower before you start your engine, no reason to have the alternator and the charger going at the same time.  (It was an earlier question from a member - really.)

[Ron Hill]

Ken : All wet cell/all AGM/all Gel - DON"T mix types!!  
Look at the shelf in the aft cabin above the engine, a small starting battery will fit.  I put mine further away in a more hidden place.  
Your choice.  

[Stu Jackson]

So if your Charles charger can't handle different types (which it almost certainly can't), then wire it to the house bank.  The Duo Charge will then appropriately charge the engine battery from that source, assuming that you configure it appropriately.

This is another subtle but important item regarding the Charles chargers.  Some of the older (just a few years ago) Charles chargers were "dedicated" to one battery type.  This was included in my earlier reference to the Charles Redux Battery Charger thread.  So if you changed battery types, you had to change your charger.  A delightful design concept...

At that time, only Statpower (Xantrex, Truecharge) had a battery "type" (i.e., wet, gel, AGM, etc.) switch.

Charles may have gotten wiser recently.  I do not know if this is the case, and haven't checked catalogs, their website or any in a store.  If you know, it would be helpful to find out.

Just be careful and understand what you are doing.

[Mike Vaccaro]

Ken,

Congrats on the new boat!  

You might consider the electrical upgrade as part of the commissioning process and work with your dealer.  They may or may not have electrician you can help with this.  Another option is to use the boat as delivered for a season or so and then figure out what modifications you want to make after you've got some experience with her.

There are many ways to skin the starting battery cat--and I would recommend that you consider installing one.  A couple rules of thumb, if it's "out of sight/out of mind," best to use an AGM battery (minimal maintenance requirements).  Like Ron said, mixing battery types is best avoided, but it can be practical if you have the right (read EXPENSIVE and EXTENSIVE) equipment on board.

On our boat, we do mix types--plain old 6 volt wet cells (lots of 'em) for one large house bank and a single 12v AGM starting battery located under the aft berth; but the systems are isolated and charged separately.  There is an emergency switch that allows the starting battery to power the boats electronics system (navigation and communication) if necessary.  There is no way to "parallel" the house bank and starting battery.  This was done intentionally to isolate the systems.

Best of Luck!

Mike

[ken003]

Thanks for all the advice.
I have letters in to Charles electronics and Jack Rabbit telling them what I am doing and will probably be back on this forum with more questions.  The smart thing for me to do with the new boat would be to spend this summer on it as is and make sure everything is working like it should.  As things work out, my wife and I are leaving Lake Champlain, going through the Erie Canal into the Great Lakes to the North Channel.  Unfortunately (but I am not really complaining   ) this requires a short timeline in getting our boat ready to sail (we hope to be leaving before mid June).  The one thing I did want to do was put in the separate starting battery.  The setup I am planning on completely isolates the starting and house batteries.  The alternator will run directly to the house bank along with the shore power charger.  The only connections between the two banks will be through the duo charge and engine ground.  Not running the shore power charger to the start battery means one less wire to run.  I will read up on the Digital Duo Charge and see if I understand it and the Jack Rabbit marine people sound like they are very willing to help.

Ken

[Stu Jackson]

Ken

I agree with your approach.  Given your planned cruising ground, the very best thing you can do for starters (no pun intended) is what you are planning to do.

However, (and here's the BUT) please remember that with your stock alternator, you WILL need to plug in sometime, almost weekly during your cruise. to top off your house bank. This assumes that from your last post you would defer the installation of the high output alternator and external regulator.  If you are going to put them in, too, before you leave, then the following doesn't apply, but is still valid information for others.

I wrote this as part of a long 2004 Summer Cruise story I wrote for our local Fleet 1 Telltale:

Helpful Hints:  Electrical Systems:  For extended cruises for those with OEM stock alternators and no external regulation, there is inherently a steadily diminishing law of return in battery charging even if you motor a lot everyday.  If you do an energy budget, even if you motor for eight hours a day, you will be drawing down your batteries, regardless of how much you’ve increased your house bank.  You WILL need to stop and plug in every week or so.  Do the math.  If you really want to stay out “forever,” add solar and a new high(er) output alternator and smart regulator.  We minimized use of electric lights with our lamp oil trawler cabin light and lamp oil anchor light hooked onto our Garhauer dinghy davit, but most of the energy use is from the fridge.  With our large 315 amp hour house battery bank and a separate start battery, we were very comfortable being out in two different situations.  The first was for a few days without motoring or plugging in.  We turned off the fridge at night, so we only used 30 to 40 amp hours a day and could go three or four days without running the engine.  The second was knowing we’d be motoring for at least five hours or plugging in at a marina.  So, before you go, make sure your electrical system is up to snuff so you can really relax and enjoy the peace and quiet without having to worry about your boat systems."

Followup comments:

The "Do the Math" referred to doing an energy budget.  Also assumes you have refrigeration, rather than an ice box, and that you plan to use it.  You could go longer, much longer, with just using the icebox as an icebox, even if you do have refrigeration - just turn it off!  

If you've topped off your house bank before you leave, then make a running total of how much gets drawn daily, and then how much you'll be able to put back in with a stock alternator.  Unfortunately, that's not very much because even with a 55 amp alternator, with no external regulation, the internal regulator will not put out very much.  Without getting into the details, covered elsewhere and in references, say you get 20 amps (which is pushing it).  Motor four hours you get 80 amps, which barely keeps up with the fridge load.  We still have our stock alternator with an AutoMac, so we get a little bit more out of the alternator.  I have a new Blue Circle Alternator and MaxCharge ready to go in as soon as I can find a window to start boat work amidst all the sailing.  :)

Have a great cruise, and keep comin' back here.  Congrats on your new boat.

Also, please note that as a new boat owner, you get a free first year membership in the C34 International Association.  Your dealer may have neglected to mention it to you, most do.  Please send me your address and we can get Mainsheet and the CD-ROM to you asap.  You can email me at mraquaq@aol.com.

[Stu Jackson]

Ken

Re Charles Chargers

You will most likely be getting a C-2000.  This is the link to their catalog in PDF that you can view online or download.

http://www.charlesindustries.com/MarineCataloglowres.pdf

It appears, from page 6 of the catalog, that they've pulled themselves into the 21st century and now offer both switching between battery types as well as bulk, absorption and float stages.  This is good.  It is unclear whether or not they offer an equalization stage as Xantrex does - this is important for wet cells.

This may save you some correspondence with Charles.

The main Charles website is just the first part of the URL above.

In order to be fair, I'll go back and link this to the old post referenced above.

[Stephen Butler]

We have been following the discussion on new chargers, alternators, wiring, etc. with great interest.  We are planning an electrical redo, probably next year on our 1990 C34.  In the meantime, our boat came with a Lewco 20 amp charger that seems to be doing fine per our measurements.  As we will be using the Lewco for awhile yet, are there any problems we should be aware of?  We have done the usual searches on the site, but have not found much.  Thanks.

[Stu Jackson]

Steve and Nancy

Haven't heard of Lewco for as long as I've been here.  If it's heavy and has an ammeter on it, it's old and ready for the J heap.

However, in answer to your question, if it is a single stage charger, it IS killing your batteries by simply continuously undercharging them at a constant 13.8V.  If you leave your boat plugged in all week at the dock, as most do, it's harmful.  Maybe you won't see it immediately, but instead of six years on batteries, you'll only get three or four.  I don't know what "doing fine per our measurements" consist of.  If it's just voltage, unless you have everything OFF for 24 hours, both incoming and output, it's not a sufficient measurement.

That's the simple answer.  As I've (and others) said, a quality 3 stage charger will give an immediate payback on battery cost by simply  extending the life of the banks.  While I can't begin to assume what you are planning, unless it includes a separate combined inverter/charger, if it includes a new charger, why not just bite the bullet and replace just the charger now?

A very good "What Batteries Need" article is at www.amplepower.com - download the Ample Power Primer.  Great reading if you haven't done so already.

[Ron Hill]

Ken : Good for you, planning on cruising with what you have!!  You can always spend $$.
As Stu said you need to make an electrical budget based on the way you cruise - how many amps you use on a daily average.  In that light I advise everyone that the first item of electrical upgrade that they buy is a battery monitor.  It will tell you how much you use (amps) and how you're doing refilling (amps) back into the batteries.  A link 10 (wired into the Perko switch) or a Link 20 will serve you well monitoring the "health" of your house bank.

For the time being stick with the onboard shore power charger.  If it's not a multi stage charger DO NOT stay plugged in 24/7.  I had a 15 amp silicone rectified single stage for 16 years, but only plugged it in when I was in the boat and had some draw "on".  I now have a True Charge 20.

Your starting battery need not be larger than a Group 24 size, but should be a STARTING  type BATTERY.  I control mine thru a on/off switch.  It will recharge in 20/30 minutes, while the house bank will usually take much longer.  Combiners are $$ and use power to operate!

After a season you'll know the boat, know how you cruise and be awhere of your electrical needs.   Some thoughts.  

[ken003]

For a start battery, is there a minimum MCA I should be looking at?  The engine is the universal M-35B.

I like your advice I think it is the right way to go, but I am tempted to jump right in with the bigger alternator and everything else.  The main thing keeping me in line is the short time I have to get ready.

Thanks,
Ken

[David Sanner]

So many options...  even on shore power.

I keep my shore power on 24/7 because of my 12v fridge
which cycles 5 amps about 1/2 time.

I have the Truecharge20 setup with a couple golf cart batts
for the house and a separate starting battery with some
nice sized cables running between.

The start battery is normally disconnected from the
shore charger (it was being over charged from the cycling)
and I keep it it shape with regular use.  (I've thought about
an echo charger.)

Lately I've put my charger back to three stage (bulk/absorb/float)
because the house batteries didn't seem to be charging enough
without the float stage.  It seems to be doing better... and not
overcharging at this point.  

Are there any good/easy options when there is a continuous cycling source?


I wish my fridge had a 120 option... or beer just kept itself cold.

-d