Elliptical rudder conflict ???

[roger]

I'm looking at a 2001 34, wk, and I've read the association's FAQ regarding the original  rudder and it's inherant problems. Wanting to confirm that the 2001 model came stock with the elliptical, I called Catalina and a tech representative told me that there is no such animal for a Catalina 34. The story I got was this: when Catalina came out with the wing keel, they merely wacked several inches off the traditional fin keel rudder and it didn't work very well. They then redisgned the rudder a bit, but it is not an elliptical rudder. Does anybody know the rest of the story?

[hdevera]

ROGER,

I have the 2001 model and whatever rudder it has, it works fine.  I have not had any difficulties sailing SF Bay areas.  Don't sweat it.  It's a good boat.  If has the layout you like and the options you want then the only thing to worry about is the price (assuming your survey hasn't found any problems).

[Stu Jackson #224]

Roger

I continue to urge you to do some searching and finding.  I KNOW what you are going through with this HUGE website, but I was able to find the answer to what you are looking for in less than two minutes, although with my in-laws new XP computer I couldn't cut and paste the answer as quickly as I could at home.

I used the main website search engine "new rudder."  I couldn't spell elliptical.....

Here it is:  http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html

PLEEEZE, unless there is something that restricts your time [like looking for or at your new boat], {so THEN feel free to ask}, use the resources here to find and search your subject.

I am NOT a grinch, just an encyclopedia writer who's wirtten it all and only asks that someone crack the book to look.

Happy Holidays,

Stu

PS  I'm visiting, and couldn't get into my usual log in screen, so I'm a guest for a week or so.

[Stu Jackson #224]

Roger

I continue to urge you to do some searching and finding.  I KNOW what you are going through with this HUGE website, but I was able to find the answer to what you are looking for in less than two minutes, although with my in-laws new XP computer I couldn't cut and paste the answer as quickly as I could at home.

I used the main website search engine "new rudder."  I couldn't spell elliptical.....

Here it is:  http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html

PLEEEZE, unless there is something that restricts your time [like looking for or at your new boat], {so THEN feel free to ask}, use the resources here to find and search your subject.

I am NOT a grinch, just an encyclopedia writer who's wirtten it all and only asks that someone crack the book to look.

Happy Holidays,

Stu

PS  I'm visiting, and couldn't get into my usual log in screen, so I'm a guest for a week or so.

[roger]

Stu: If you read my message carefully, you would have discerned that I did indeed research the topic. My message indicated a conflict between the websites information and what I was hearing from Catalina. I urge you to read the message carefully before chastising a potential new paying member.
Respectfuly submitted.

[Stu Jackson #224]

You're right Roger, I apologize.  We're not in it for the $.

Stu

[dave davis]

Roger, I can add a little bit to the rest of the story but you never have it all. It looks like the May,1999 issue of the Mainsheet shows the two rudders for the WING keel. The newer one is slightly elliptical in the forward edge. Both are the same short length. When they changed the design for the rudder on the FIN keel, they made the new rudder 7 inches longer than the old rudder and they shaped the forward edge tho make it elliptical. The new shape has a 20% more surface area by my measurement. Gerry Douglas does not agree with my numbers but thats the way it goes.The Nov,1998 issue of the Mainsheet shows the old and new shapes of the FIN keel rudder. The new rudder is also used on the C36.
 I have a FIN keel and I can say that the new design helps to prevent round-ups in heavy weather but it is stiffer to steer. Gerry finds that hard to believe, he says it should be easier to steer. I think that it has to do with the amount of area forward vs.aft of the rudder post in the two designs.
Good luck, I hope this help somewhat.

[Phil Spicer]

I have an 88 c34. It had a stock rudder.I called the factory & they told me to send them my old rudder & they would rebuild it into the NEW elliptical shape .....$900 to $1100............RIGHT....So do this... Trace the rudder of a new 34. Place the tracing against your rudder & you will see the difference. Now run a line down the back of your rudder to scribe a new line on the tracing & you have the difference, which will be a small elliptical shape that will max out at 5 or 6 inches at the middle of the back of the rudder. It will just be a small arc that goes from almost nothing to 5"or 6"away from the back (near center) of the rudder & arcs back to almost nothing.
 I made this small addition from 1/4" marine plywood (just happen to have a little in the garage). Glue it on with "west epoxy" or the like, then glass it over good & strong, finish smooth & add some bottom paint.
 Before i did this my (our) 34 would round up in heavy weather. Sometimes it would round up so hard I couldn't control the boat. After adding the elliptical section it handles like a dream. My wife handles the boat in & out of the dock & she said she could notice the difference the first time away from the dock....Last winter i repitched the prop from 9 to 10 & my wife said she could feel that change also....A last thought. To hold the ellipse square to the rudder is really easy. You need 3 large "c" clamps & 6 paint stir sticks. Clamp the stir sticks to the back of the rudder in pairs ...top,mid,bott...The taper of the rudder will make the sticks form a "V" & they will touch. Just spread each pair apart & slide the plywood into place. The tension held my ellipse in place But you may want to add clamps. Now mix your epoxy & thicken to peanutbutter & go to it...Questions, Call me at 419-334-3071...I don't type will..this has been almost 45min.   Phil Spicer
Sailing a 1988 c34....Steamboat...on Sandusky Bay, Ohio

[Phil Spicer]

Note :My c34 has a wing keel. Traced the new rudder on a newer 34 with a wing keel. So if you don't have an elliptical rudder you may want to try this add-on. Good luck..Phil Spicer,Steamboat.........c34 #789

[rm_fleming]

I had a grounding incident this last summer.  The result was discovered at haul-out this fall.  The rudder, at the bottom edge was quite damaged.  A new rudder was on the horizon as this one was not repairable.  I thought, what a great time to replace it with an elliptical.  When our repair guy called Catalina he was informed that the elipitical rudder was designed to work with the Mark II hull design and that to be hydo-dynamically correct the Mark I hull shape would have to be modified.  I decided to go with the standard replacement.

[tandm]

That's interesting.  I have read in more than a few places that, according to Catalina, the exterior differences between the Mark I and Mark II hulls are all above the waterline. They must of hired a new guy to answer the phone.  ( Forgive my cynicism.)

td

[Bruce Hoch "Vanishing Poi]

PHIL
Your elliptical add-on sounds great! How has it held up after a season of sailing?  I really think that this sounds like the answer I need, rather than ship the rudder from NJ to CA for re-shaping.  Vanishing Point is also an '88 with a tall rig and a 150% genoa.  In race conditions on a 20+ knot day, we lost control of the boat after rounding up and almost hit a harbor buoy.  Although I don't race anymore, I have noticed the rounding up even when cruising, and I'm tired of spilling off air or reefing when other boats I'm sailing with are doing just fine.  Did you run your idea past Catalina at all?

[Phil Spicer]

Bruce :Thanks for the call. It was nice to talk with you. After 2 years I have no problems with the rudder, or rounding up. My wife really likes the difference in how the boat sails and powers. Good luck with your adventure into glass & epoxy. Let me know how the project comes out.
Phil Spicer..........789 Steamboat

[George]

I'm a new guest to this site, so please be nice. :)

I saw a C34, probably a 1997 through 1999ish model.  It was out of the water and I noticed it had a wing keel, but a rudder that was slightly longer than the keel.  I noticed it in particular since this configuration seemed odd.  Can anyone opine on this?  Am I missing something?  Thanks for your thoughts.

[Ted Pounds]

Roger,

Just shipped my rudder off to Catalina to be re-cast.  I talked to Robert there and he said the new elliptical shape is the only one they do.  I guess they don't have the old molds anymore.  So you should end up with the new design.  I'd be curious to know if you don't get the new one.

Ted

By the way,  I just just picked ip my two first place trophies for our club's two Wed. night series.  (I know it's not polite to brag, but I figure it's not bragging when I'm talking about the great boat we all share ;)) I'm looking forward racing this summer with the new rudder and maybe trying some races in the spinnaker division.  I'll let everyone know how we do.