Differences between older Universal Medalist & Universal A & A(C) engines

[KWKloeber]

I moved this off the "Starter" thread because it has nothing to do with that topic. I also removed my related posts there and Stu, I recommend you remove your messages over there so that, in the future, owners don't pick up bad info from your incorrect statements in those posts.

Sometimes with Ken one requires a scorecard or translator decoder ring.

...I just recently "discovered" the secret to Ken's invention of "A" series engines.

...there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!

The article here explains the key difference(s) between the original, "A", "A(C)" and "B", "B(C)" series engines.
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243

Stu, I believe that you like many owners are not "up on" your Universal models.  Owners are sometimes confused about their engines and do not know what it means when their engine tag says "A" or "AC" (actually an "A(C)" series but Westerbeke typically omits the parentheses on engine tags.)

No Stu, A-series engines are not an invention (other than Universal's that is.)

I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB

No worries, you and others can un-confuse yourselves by reading and studying my write-up that I linked to.  Just perhaps if we understood the series we will provide better advice to owners with other than an "Oshkosh" Universal.

As you often lament: Owners should learn everything about THEIR OWN engine -- Key to that is understanding whether it is an "A series" like M-25XPA (or 35A) or "A(C) series" like M-25XPA(C) (or 35A(C), especially when troubleshooting but also when sourcing certain parts.  Some of the differences are skin deep and some differences go deeper.  Hence, that was one reason for my Deep Dive to summarize the key differences between the (Oshkosh, WI) Universal models vs. the (Avon, MA) Universal series ("A", "A(C), and "B").  That write-up is (thank's for coining an appropriate phrase) your Decoder Ring to the differences between those series if you want to use it. 

No Stu, whichever engine panel Catalina installed has nothing to do with the different engine series.

If [Ken] would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP  A

Stu, I believe that I should continue to use Universal's nomenclature (M25-XP, M25-XPA, M25-XPA(C) and M-35, M-35A, M-35A(C).)  Feel free to invent your own with as many <spaces> or different punctuation as you see fit.  "Your Posts, Your Choice."
And if you strongly believe that Wb ought to retroactively adopt M-25XP<space><space><space>A and M-35<space><space><space>A, you can suggest that right here: help@westerbeke.com.
Naturally, I'll change to the new nomenclature as soon as Wb adopts your suggestion(s.)

One can also (as you also oftentimes lament) just RTFM(s) (on your Wiki Site) for edification that Universal produced "M-25XPA" and "M-25XPA(C)", among other "A" series engines. (Again, the full list is at the bottom)

[Stu Jackson]

Here is The Decoder Ring (so you don't have to click on a link to another website)

Kloeber Engine History

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 David wrote:
@Ken
You stated that my motor is a Westerbeke. It says Universal on it. Was Westerbeke doing some sub manufacturing for Universal?
***

David

Medalist Universal Motors in Oshkosh WI built the original Universals, e.g., Atomic 4, 5411, M-18, 5421, M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M4-30, etc.
In 1990 Westerbeke purchased and eventually moved Universal production to its Avon MA location (current location is Tauton MA.)

Regarding Universal model numbers: After the purchase, Wb continued to produce the same M-25XPs, etc., (built using Kubota engines) but transitioned to manufacturing them (in 1993) with the designation "A" - e.g., M-25XPA, M-35A, etc., which had these mods:

1) Engine color changed from Copper-Bronze to silver and finally to Ice Blue.

2) Changed the engine wiring to its "Westerbeke standard" (to mimic the "Westerbeke propulsion engine" wiring that it used since forever.)  These have the convoluted wiring that's a nightmare to troubleshoot when an engine alarm fails (it's frequently due to the harness.)  The harness is also more intricate and difficult to work on than it should be.  KISS. (But Wb probably saves twenty dollars per engine when installing it.)

3) Added onto the "A" series engines:
(a) An on-engine, 20-a Circuit Breaker (in part it protects the feed up to the cockpit panel);
(b) A Glow-Plug-Preheat Solenoid;
(c) A fail-safe shutdown; i.e., cuts power to the fuel pump if oil pressure is lost (which doesn't always work/shut down on all models and (IMO) is pretty useless and troubleshooting becomes a nightmare if the harness fails and the fuel pump won't run);
(d) Modified where/how the Oil Pressure Alarm Switch is located/configured,
(e) Provided for an Oil Pressure Sender (a Gauge is optional on the Wb "Universal" panels -- apparently, Catalina never "noticed the benefit" of an Oil Pressure Gauge);
(f) A High-Temp Switch to the Thermostat Cap.

4) Produced (and still produces) a "(C) series" -- e.g., your M-25XPA(C) and now, e.g., the M-25XPB(C), M-35B(C)).  "C" engines are wired to "C"atalina's spec (so the harness mates with Catalina cockpit panels instead of "Universal" brand panels, which are identical to, and simply rebranded, "Westerbeke" panels.)  One difference with the "(C)" standard is that Westerbeke/Universal panels have different engine alarm wiring (a second cable and plug, whereas Catalina's engine and alarm wiring pass through a single harness plug.)  There are probably other differences but (although I've studied both the Wb and Wb "(C)" schematics) I haven't looked for every difference -- I just know about the alarm from the practical aspect of wiring both types of panels.

5) The "A" (and now "B") engines continue to use the 9-pin harness plug, but it is higher quality than the disastrous (reportedly "hot glue") Gummy Bear plugs that Catalina used to mate to the Oshkosh Universal engines and is also on the back of the OEM Catalina Panels (by Seaward.)

In 1996-1998 Westebeke transitioned from the Universal "A" series to the "B" engines, i.e., M-35B, M-40B, M-50B, M-25XPB**, M3-20B** (** current models.)  The "B" series continue with essentially the same mods as on the
"A" engines.  Although Wb piggy backed onto the same model numbers it's just marketing -- although they are still built using Kubota engines, the only commonality between the "B" engines and former (Oshkosh and "A") engines, is the number of cylinders.

One owner I know, when repowering from an Oshkosh M-25 to a Westerbeke/Universal M-25XPB, ripped out the Westerbeke wiring and rewired it to the "old" system.  Much simpler and (IMO) better!

The text above comes from here: https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243