Single reefing point good enough?

[pbyrne]

Like many (all?), it seems that I've only got a single reefing point, even though the boom can accept another reefing line.

Was this a 'cheap' out on Catalina's part, or is a single reefing point enough? 

I've got a MKII and the what feels like a too large 135% genoa, and trying to see if it makes sense to add the second reefing line or not.

[Jim Hardesty]

It all depends on how much wind you want to sail in.  If you are sailing in 30kn probably want a second reef.  Why do you think 135 jib is too big, does it have a lot of weather helm?  If so maybe a rig tuning is in order.  When I had new sails made for Shamrock, a MKII with roller furlering main.  Went with a 140 jib.  Very happy with the combination.
Jim

[Ron Hill]

pby : From what I've seen of reefing point: The believe the sail maker puts a single reef point higher up in the main sail than when he puts in two reefing points!!
 
Personally I've never had to use the top reef point because the bottom one does the job, but like I mentioned I believe it is lower than where a single reef point would be.                                   

I sail with a 150% jib, but with the Garhauer movable genoa cars I can roller in some of that 150% and it still holds its shape.  I do a lot of sailing using the jib alone - just like "front wheel drive"!!

A few thoughts

[pbyrne]

pby : From what I've seen of reefing point: The believe the sail maker puts a single reef point higher up in the main sail than when he puts in two reefing points!!
 
Personally I've never had to use the top reef point because the bottom one does the job, but like I mentioned I believe it is lower than where a single reef point would be.                                    I sail with a 150% jib, but with the Garhauer movable genoa cars I can roller in some of that 150% and it still holds its shape.

A few thoughts

I didn't know that about a single reefed main!  I assumed that the single point is the same as when there is 2 points.  Huh.

Yeah, that's the problem I have with the genoa.  It's sail shape isn't great when reefed, and I find the boat is comfortable around 15-20kts with the main reefed and the genoa around 90-110%?  Fully unfurled the boat heels too much for comfort to weather when gusting over 20kts.  Or it does for us!

[Jim Hardesty]

Yeah, that's the problem I have with the genoa.  It's sail shape isn't great when reefed, and I find the boat is comfortable around 15-20kts with the main reefed and the genoa around 90-110%?  Fully unfurled the boat heels too much for comfort to weather when gusting over 20kts.  Or it does for us!

Everyone has their own comfort level. Don Guillette's book on sail trim helped me, I still look it over every spring. I also like his quick charts. Sails can be adjusted to spill wind and keep the boat on its feet.
Jim

https://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/Sail-Trim-Users-Guide

[Breakin Away]

I also debated a second reef point in my mainsail, but then I realized that I can sail on my 135 Genoa alone and still have perfectly balanced helm on virtually all points of sail. If you think this defies logic, remember that a properly shaped Genoa has lift that may tend to oppose the expected lee helm.

So in a heavy blow I'll sail on partially furled Genoa alone (my luff pad gives nice shape furled down to about 100). Tacking is more difficult when sailing on Genoa alone, but I try to sail in a straight line for as long as possible and minimize tacking.

Believe it or not, I usually reef the main sail at 8-10 knots. Above 8-10, I'm fighting weather helm and the resulting rudder drag negates most of the benefit of the full main. So I reef and get a much more balanced helm with less rudder drag. Sometimes partial Genoa is enough.

Above 15 knots, I start to get weather helm again even with the main reefed, so the main sail goes down completely and I sail on the Genoa.

[Stu Jackson]

You make very good points.  When I was sailing on SF Bay (1998-2016) your technique was exactly what I used when cruising.  I used to joke that I had my "April to September" first reef in my mainsail!  My large headsail was a 110, but I flew my 85% during the summers.  25 knots before the gusts demanded nothing more, but the balance issues are identical.  I have a second reef but in all those years on SF Bay only used it once, and that was just for practice.  I also sailed a lot on just my jib(s).  The boat points almost as high with just a jib.

[pbyrne]

I also debated a second reef point in my mainsail, but then I realized that I can sail on my 135 Genoa alone and still have perfectly balanced helm on virtually all points of sail. If you think this defies logic, remember that a properly shaped Genoa has lift that may tend to oppose the expected lee helm.

So in a heavy blow I'll sail on partially furled Genoa alone (my luff pad gives nice shape furled down to about 100). Tacking is more difficult when sailing on Genoa alone, but I try to sail in a straight line for as long as possible and minimize tacking.

Believe it or not, I usually reef the main sail at 8-10 knots. Above 8-10, I'm fighting weather helm and the resulting rudder drag negates most of the benefit of the full main. So I reef and get a much more balanced helm with less rudder drag. Sometimes partial Genoa is enough.

Above 15 knots, I start to get weather helm again even with the main reefed, so the main sail goes down completely and I sail on the Genoa.

I believe it! I've done the same thing.  Reefed Main,and Genoa to about 100%, in 10-15 kts and she sits at 15 degrees of heel and is happy.  Above that the main is too powerful hence me asking about the second reef.  I hadn't thought about just using the Genoa, because tacking...doesn't go so well without the main!

Once the main comes down do you still keep the Genoa reefed or do you open it up a bit more than 100%?

[Stu Jackson]

I believe it! I've done the same thing.  Reefed Main,and Genoa to about 100%, in 10-15 kts and she sits at 15 degrees of heel and is happy.  Above that the main is too powerful hence me asking about the second reef.  I hadn't thought about just using the Genoa, because tacking...doesn't go so well without the main!

Tacking was NEVER an issue with my boat with ONLY either my 110 or 85 jibs alone, mainsail down.

This is because if it is windy enough to drop the main and use a smaller jib, that MEANS the boat is going fast enough.

Tacking was never a problem for me.  On this boat in SF Bay from 1998 to 2016, nor on my Catalina 25 from 1987 to 1998.  Hank on jibs on the C25 ProFurl on the C34.

[waughoo]

I often sail with just the "window shade" (roller furling head sail) and have not had any trouble tacking even in lighter air.  If needed, I will let the head sail JUST barely back wind against the sheet before releasing which aids coming through the wind.  It also helps to avoid the sheets and sail hanging up on the shrouds as I pull it across to the new side.

[Breakin Away]

For me the trick to tacking on genoa alone is to be patient before trying to point too high. In other words, turn about 100 degrees, let the sail cross over as normal, and allow to boat to build speed one a broad reach, then once sufficient speed is acquired work on pointing higher and trimming in the sheet. It's not great racing technique, but it avoids the risk of getting caught in irons if you try to point too high before the boat has sufficient speed.

[Sailing Amok]

Interesting to see that a few folks have mentioned too much weather helm etc with the main. We've found Coral Wave often feels most balanced with the first reef in. We had attributed that to running a 135 Genoa rather than the stock 150 (which appears to have never been used by any of the previous owners). That said, the main does seem to help with sea state compared to headsail alone. So, a couple seasons ago we had a second reef put into the main. It's extra deep, somewhere between a typical 2nd and 3rd reef. We really just wanted something to make the boat more comfortable than no sail, when we find ourselves in conditions we wouldn't intentionally end up in. Unlike some commenters, we do find we prefer to have both sails up when the wind is ahead of the beam. We definitely don't point as well with just the headsail. Maybe it's a technique thing. But when the wind is on or aft of the beam, and north of 15 knots, headsail alone gets us close enough to the same speed as having the reefed main up, that the extra heeling from the main isn't worth it.

[Gulfsailor]

We had two reefs on our 32. The second emailed the boat to handle quite well in 25-30 knot winds.

I will be ordering a new mainsail soon and want the second reef as well.

[Holger Dieske]

I have 3 Reefs in the Main (and a 150Genua).
I need the 3.Reef not often, but when I need, I'm glad to have.

to have is better as to need ;)

[Jon W]

I agree with Holger. I haven't used it, but I have a 3rd reef in the main too. It was only a few dollars to add to a new sail, and is cheap insurance.