WK pointing ability

[justinsteele]

Hi Everyone,

I have been searching around the forum and am sure it's been covered 1000 times but I can't find what I'm looking for.

I am in the process of acquiring a '87 C-34 WK. I used to race my C-25 FK and performed well to my PHRF rating. I read quite a bit that the WK doesn't point as high and may slip sideways more etc. Just wondering if I can get an idea from everyone who has more experience on the boat how close hauled you can make it in relation to the apparent wind. In my C-25 I could ride right at 30 deg apparent. Iv read C-34 people stating that they can do 15 deg which means they didn't understand the question and others who say 40 deg is the best they can do.

Especially interested if anyone has any racing experience but I am also happy to grab info from day sailors. I love the boat but this is my biggest holdup as it was what I used my C-25 for 80% of the time. I just have a wife and 2 young children to keep happy and want to do more short term cruising.

[Ted Pounds]

I raced my fin C-34 and she sailed very well to her PHRF.  With a folding prop, a new VC-17 bottom and replacing the 10 year old sails she won everything at our club.  I raced against a WK C-36 (MK II) at our club and she didn't come close to her rating.  My guess is you will be disappointed with the performance of the WK.

[Jim Hardesty]

others who say 40 deg is the best they can do.

40 deg, maybe a little better, is about it for the best speed for Shamrock, will point higher but loose speed.  You may find this interesting.  See the links for racing certificate, I think I've seen more speed/wind angle graphs.  It maybe worth a search for you. 

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11290.msg90552.html#msg90552

Jim

[scgunner]

Justin,

I used to race Top Gun in a "fairly" stock class but there are still a number of things you can do to make the boat point higher and go faster. But like all forms of racing it just depends on how serious you want to get. If you want to point better on the cheap simply loosen the rear lower mast shrouds then crank down the fronts followed by loosening the forestay while cranking down the rear which will put a slight bow in the mast. You'll be amazed at how much better the boat will point. But in racing it's usually not just one thing but a combination of things required to achieve the desired performance. Also a lighter boat is a faster boat that will tack and jibe quicker. And you can lock the prop straight up and down. After that things begin to get more expensive like an actual backstay adjuster, a new set of sails with a loose foot full batten main and a 155% deck sweeper jib, etc. I don't recall the actual improvement in degrees but it did point significantly higher making it faster against the field.

[Stu Jackson]

In San Francisco, before I left in 2016 and before Covid screwed everything up, we had a very, very healthy racing group.  Indeed, it had so many participants that we split it up into racing and cruising divisions.  I was in the cruising group but before they got split for one or two years I did pretty well when the entire fleet raced against one another.  We raced one design during the summers and in PHRF during the winter but had enough boats for our own starts during the winters, too.

One year a new fellow with wing keel and a tall rig appeared having moved in from out of state.  It took him a couple of years to "learn The Bay," but once he did, he did quite well.

Over the many years the fleet developed an excellent handicap set.  Eventually all the racing group ended up with (max. allowed) 130 jibs and folding props, which made everything for them quite even.

NCPHRF Base Rating : 147
Adjustments for equipment variations:
Item Adjustment (sec/mile)
Tall Rig -9
Furling or non-furling Jib with the tack 8" or more above deck +9
In-the-mast or in-the-boom main sail furling +6
Wing Keel +6
Fixed 2 blade propeller +3
Fixed 3 blade propeller +6
Small Jib (110% or less or with a luff of 38' or less) +6

[scgunner]

Stu,

I would imagine a tall rig would be a real handful in the Bay.

[Stu Jackson]

Stu,

I would imagine a tall rig would be a real handful in the Bay.

Kevin,

Surprisingly not so much.  I spoke with the skipper about a year after he first arrived.  He said that once he decided to join the the fun of racing, he did his homework with the other racing skippers and found a good local sail loft who understood our boats; we had so many of them the sail maker was well acquainted with Catalina 34s.  Because the C34 sailing instructions were clear on the limits of sails that could be used (Dacron, no plastics, etc.), he was able to fine tune the design of the sails for having them cut correctly to avoid bagging and all the usual go-fact techniques then available and other details necessary for The Bay.  We're talking about "hi-tech" 2000-2005 time frame.  He did quite well once he got his new suit.  IIRC, the handicaps as noted above didn't much come into play for his successful campaigns.

[justinsteele]

Justin,

I used to race Top Gun in a "fairly" stock class but there are still a number of things you can do to make the boat point higher and go faster. But like all forms of racing it just depends on how serious you want to get. If you want to point better on the cheap simply loosen the rear lower mast shrouds then crank down the fronts followed by loosening the forestay while cranking down the rear which will put a slight bow in the mast. You'll be amazed at how much better the boat will point. But in racing it's usually not just one thing but a combination of things required to achieve the desired performance. Also a lighter boat is a faster boat that will tack and jibe quicker. And you can lock the prop straight up and down. After that things begin to get more expensive like an actual backstay adjuster, a new set of sails with a loose foot full batten main and a 155% deck sweeper jib, etc. I don't recall the actual improvement in degrees but it did point significantly higher making it faster against the field.

Thanks, I appreciate you insight. I did a lot of fiddling with my 25 with mast rake, prebend, forestay tension etc. I had an excellent skipper tell me that calling the wind and side of the course is far more important than minuscule adjustments on the boat especially in a PHRF fleet.

My biggest concern is a hopelessness due to the design of the boat and things that become out of my control unless I want to buy a new keel for example which is ridiculous.

[justinsteele]

others who say 40 deg is the best they can do.

40 deg, maybe a little better, is about it for the best speed for Shamrock, will point higher but loose speed.  You may find this interesting.  See the links for racing certificate, I think I've seen more speed/wind angle graphs.  It maybe worth a search for you. 

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11290.msg90552.html#msg90552

Jim

Thanks Jim, not the supportive answer I was hoping to hear but what I figured the answers would be.

[scgunner]

Justin,

The Catalina is a cruising design, you can make it perform better but you can't make it a racing boat. Maybe for your needs you might want to take a look at a J-boat, it's far easier to turn a racing boat into a cruising boat than the other way around. That excellent skipper is correct a well handled boat will almost always perform better, but if that excellent skipper is racing another excellent skipper it's usually those "minuscule adjustments" that make the difference.

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just have a wife and 2 young children to keep happy and want to do more short term cruising.

Justin,

Given everything that has been discussed since your original post, I went back and re-read the entire thread.

If this quote of yours is all you have to deal with, then, quite frankly, I think you wouldn't notice any difference.  Why?  Because you would not be racing against anyone, nor would you be doing comparisons of any kind with your Catalina 25.   

If there's something more I'm missing, please advise.  But it just seems to me that from everything I've learned after a mere 25 years of owning my C34 and reading everything written about them since 1987, I doubt you'd be "disappointed" in the performance.  Why?

Lots of them sail in skinny water (i.e., Florida) and race there.  A number of years ago we helped a new local fleet assemble there and they raced as well as cruised together.

Knowledgeable PHRF ratings have been developed for them.

Of course wing keels don't point as high as fin keels.  This is true for all sisterships of any builder.  Whether this is a "deal breaker" for you is a choice only you can make.

Your boat, your choice.