M35B Hisssss

[KWKloeber]

I also hadn't realised that the collar was to protect the camshaft from a seized water pump, I thought it was to protect the water pump from failing in the first place.  Sounds like they were clearly aware the pump was an issue. What are the symptoms of a failing water pump (water flow is normal)? Is the sound in my video something anyone has experienced with the Sherwood?

The pump shaft can seize due to corrosion inside the iron body pump and then the torque of the camshaft against the seized pump shaft snaps off the fork on the camshaft gear.   See photo.  Normally, it takes a lot of abuse to the pump to cause the shaft to seize but it can happen.  It can happen on the B engines and it has on the older as well.  It happened on a C-30 (Max Munger's M4-30) and he installed a  12v pump rather than pull/repair the engine.

Generally water leaking out the weep is a clue but I suppose it can happen otherwise.  As Ron said narrow down the location.  Harbor Freight has a cheap mechanic's stethoscope or I also use a wooden dowel or steel rod but the SScope is more convenient to use around a running engine.  You can DIY one from vinyl tubing and on the working end screw in a bolt to make a metal tip to sound the engine.

[Sailing Amok]

Well, we had a bit of an adventure this weekend. Four days out on the lake, with probably a total of about four or five hours of motoring. The engine appeared to be behaving itself, and making less odd noise than it had in a while.
Leaving the anchorage to return home on Monday, we turned into the wind to get the main up, and suddenly the engine started making a snap crackle pop sound, like Rice Krispies in milk. Kristina throttled down, to see if that changed anything, and the crackling and popping remained though its speed changed with the engine's. She Throttled back up, and the crackiling and popping sped up as well, then the engine started to bog as if dying, or seizing or something, so she hit the kill switch.
We sailed along slowly at 3 knots, calculating our 10 hour return trip home. Then the wind shut down. Completely. We bobbed around in the confused seas (from last night's thunder storm) for two hours, very slowly drifting further into Lake Superior. At least we were headed away from the shoals! After a couple hours, the first boat to be in our area came towards us to give us a tow into some wind, but they didn't need to. The wind arrived with them, and we were off slowly in a pleasant 8 knots of breeze. Then 15 knots... 20...25... After a couple hours we blasted through the gap in the break wall of Thunder Bay Harbour with nothing out but a sliver of headsail. No way we could be towed into our slip in this, so we anchored under sail, just outside the marina and waited for the wind to die. We were very thankful for our recent upgrade to a Rocna 20. There were no second chances on that anchoring job, as the only reasonable anchoring depths had us rather close to a lee shore. Anyway, a couple hours later the wind shut down again and we got towed into our slip.
At the dock we fired up the engine so a friend could give us some ideas. He was stumped, not a sound he'd heard before, but was leaning towards something like the injection pump, he didn't think it sounded like a bearing. We removed the belt, and the sound remained, so not the fresh water pump, which incidentally is still free spinning, as is the new alternator. Running the engine with the belt off for maybe a minute, there was suddenly a burning smell of some sort, almost electrical, or maybe plastic, so we shut the engine down again. Anyway, we're completely stumped, and the local marine diesel mechanic is backed up for the rest of the summer... I guess my next step is to take off the Sherwood and see how it feels, but this doesn't seem like water pump issues to me. Also, seems very unlikely that the alternator failure a couple weeks ago is just a coincidence. Must be something related to that, no? Some connected system? Someone suggested that the Rice Krispies could be a fuse arcing somewhere, another sailor suggested the kill switch, which is apparently some sort of energised magnet in an oil bath, which gets very hot. At least that is how it works on the tractor engines he's familiar with.

[waughoo]

Hard to do from afar, but here is what I would try.  The only thing electrical that could make arcing sounds and big down the engine would be the alternator.  If the engine was run without the belt and the sound persisted, I would say something mechanical.  Try rotating the engine by hand via the front pully to see if the noise can be heard.  If so, I am going to guess something mechanical has broken off inside and the engine is "eating" it.  At least that is where my mind goes with what information I have at hand.

[KWKloeber]

She has a "Stop Button"?

Why didn't you or the dock buddy use the methods told about to locate EXACTLY where the (pump?) noise and/or Rice Crispies were coming from?
Why wasn't the (pump?) noise isolated (and taken care of) before going out for four days?
Why hasn't the multitude of manuals been downloaded and throughly read that:
     1) shows every wire and electrical connection, and overcurrent device (ie, breaker, not fuse) on the 35B.
     2) what stops the 35B - it's not a tractor.

[Ron Hill]

Aaron : You definitely need to get that stethoscope and isolate where all that noise is coming from !! 
Your removal of the belt (and the noise continues) like you have said eliminates the internal coolant pump, raw water pump and the alternator. Also start sniffing around and find what is burning & where???

Magnetize your oil dipstick so when you run the engine next time the dipstick will act like a "chip detector".  When you pull it out you can examine it for metallic "chips"

A few thoughts 

[Sailing Amok]

She has a "Stop Button"?

Why didn't you or the dock buddy use the methods told about to locate EXACTLY where the (pump?) noise and/or Rice Crispies were coming from?
Why wasn't the (pump?) noise isolated (and taken care of) before going out for four days?
Why hasn't the multitude of manuals been downloaded and throughly read that:
     1) shows every wire and electrical connection, and overcurrent device (ie, breaker, not fuse) on the 35B.
     2) what stops the 35B - it's not a tractor.

Ken, no, she does not have a "stop button", "hit the kill switch" was a colloquialism. Coral Wave has the stock stop lever, which isn't really a lever I suppose, it's a pull knob.

The noise has been present for the past two seasons (the hissing, not the Rice Krispies, that was brand new at the dock), and the engine has always run great until the alternator failure last month. So, we figured it was reasonable to go out for a weekend of sailing, and to continue the troubleshooting during the week. Honestly, I don't regret the decision at all. We had a great weekend, and the difficult weather on the day of the engine problem gave us a chance to test our selves and our procedures in a somewhat stressful situation, relatively close to home.
1-Every manual is on my phone an iPad, as well as in a binder on Coral Wave, and has been since purchase. The previous owner, like most folks on this forum has made electrical changes and upgrades, which are not in the manual, but SHOULD be in a owner-made wiring diagram. I've completed bits and pieces of said diagram, but there's still a lot to be mapped. I think the guy who suggested an arcing fuse was thinking an MRBF type fuse, or maybe something installed somewhere to protect a wire. I haven't located any around the engine, and the Rice Krispies noise was definitely not coming from the battery bank area.
2- I think he meant a fuel shutoff solenoid, which I'm fairly certain we don't have on our engines. It's just a lever that cuts fuel to the injector pump if I understand correctly.

Aaron : You definitely need to get that stethoscope and isolate where all that noise is coming from !! 
Your removal of the belt (and the noise continues) like you have said eliminates the internal coolant pump, raw water pump and the alternator. Also start sniffing around and find what is burning & where???

Magnetize your oil dipstick so when you run the engine next time the dipstick will act like a "chip detector".  When you pull it out you can examine it for metallic "chips"

A few thoughts 

Thanks Ron, a stethoscope has been purchased, now I just need a day and a friend to help troubleshoot. I'm a bit confused as to why you say the raw water pump can be eliminated as a source of the problem. It doesn't run off the belt. Am I missing something?

Good idea on magnetising the dipstick. I really really hope I don't find any chips.

[KWKloeber]

Ken, no, she does not have a "stop button",

ok, because our Kubotas can be fitted with a stop solenoid/kill switch and we don't know what a PO might have done.  The stop solenoid could be buzzing or arcing.  I'm torn between putting one on my m-25 to do away with the cable but on the other hand adding another electrical failure point.

So, we figured it was reasonable to go out for a weekend of sailing, and to continue the troubleshooting during the week.

YBYC, I'd never go out for more than a test run knowing that there was a known but unsolved problem.  Murphy tends to stow away and things can turn worse very easily. It could have gotten nasty.

1-Every manual is on my phone an iPad, as well as in a binder on Coral Wave, and has been since purchase.

or maybe something installed somewhere to protect a wire. I haven't located any around the engine, and the Rice Krispies noise was definitely not coming from the battery bank area.

Ok if you have studied the manuals to understand how the B wiring works, the breaker that protects the harness is shown. 

Another unlikely possibility might be the "Ford type" solenoid switch (that is near that breaker) buzzing or arching.  Again it's shown in the manual.  A stuck start switch will make the starter solenoid stay energized and that can get very nasty and burn wiring.

It could be a noise in the gear case, say a camshaft or gear not getting lubricated.  I honestly couldn't hear any difference in the sound to pick that out  - probably too much background level.

Something in the air intake that's vibrating?

I've heard a thermostat flutter (not on our engines) until it fully opens.

Transmission damper plate? but doesn't seem to come from that end.


Correct, the noise still there with the belt off doesn't eliminate the raw water pump, only the closed system pump.

Re the dipstick, so much of our engines are aluminum (non magnetic) but it's always better to have more vs less info so long as one knows the limitations; ie, a false sense of security.

[Ron Hill]

Arron : I didn't mean that the raw water pump was driven by the belt-which it is NOT.  The removal of the belt eliminated the internal coolant pump and the alternator. The raw water pump was already eliminated because the temp gage is staying at 160 degrees !!!  That also eliminated Ken's dissertation on the water pump's freezing up and breaking the lug connection on the engine (which is VERY important!!).

I'm sure that the stethoscope will help you finally isolate where that "Hissssing" is coming from.

Good Luck,  a few thoughts,  Ron
 

[Sailing Amok]

The raw water pump was already eliminated because the temp gage is staying at 160 degrees !!!  That also eliminated Ken's dissertation on the water pump's freezing up and breaking the lug connection on the engine (which is VERY important!!).

Oh, I see what you mean. However, our lake temp has yet to rise above 6c, so it wouldn't take much flow at all to keep the engine temp down. I'm going to pull the water pump off anyway, to check for that service bulletin collar. It was a cheap part so I preemptively ordered one from Westerbeke and have it here ready to go. They had no record of any contact with the PO, so it may never have been done.

Will look into all of Ken's suggestions as well, and listen around with the stethoscope.

I've become suspicious of the fuel lift pump. It occurred to me that I had some diesel leaking around it last winter, which I attributed to expansion/contraction of hose clamps and barbs, but perhaps the pump itself is leaking. I could imagine that causing an intermittent hissing, as it fights to maintain pressure. I think it could also cause the bogging of the engine under increased load as we turned up into the wind to raise the sails. Our tank was half full. We have an aftermarket lift pump that the PO had installed at some point after the original failed. Ours has never clicked, it produces more of a buzz. It's always provided sufficient pressure to prime the Racor and bleed the system though.

[KWKloeber]

Aaron

If you find that it's the pump, here is info on replacements (for both the Facet cube pump that Westerbeke integrated into the Universal A & B engines and the round Facets that CTY installed for the original Universals.)

https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fuel#Pump

[Sailing Amok]

Thanks Ken, it's the pages like that and the 101s on this site save a lot of hunting through threads! I'd read on one website that the Facet Posi-Flo pumps are an update to the Cube pumps. Apparently they have a check valve which allows a higher lift height. I don't imagine that's an issue given that our tanks are above the pump. But we do have a longer line than would be on a car. In your link you mention that the Posi-Flo can be used in place of the round pumps, but don't mention using them in place of the cubes. Does this have something to do with the b series wiring/oil pressure safety?

[KWKloeber]

Thanks Ken, it's the pages like that and the 101s on this site save a lot of hunting through threads! I'd read on one website that the Facet Posi-Flo pumps are an update to the Cube pumps. Apparently they have a check valve which allows a higher lift height.  I don't imagine that's an issue given that our tanks are above the pump. But we do have a longer line than would be on a car. In your link you mention that the Posi-Flo can be used in place of the round pumps, but don't mention using them in place of the cubes. Does this have something to do with the b series wiring/oil pressure safety?

Other Facet pumps have a back-flow check valve -- you have to click on the specs of each individual pump -- the overall table of all the pumps on the website used to list whether each has a CV but that table was changed.  The CV keeps fuel in the pump for priming rather than possibly the entire line draining back to the tank (noted as you say not an issue w/ the C34.)  **I believe that** there are also Facets with a positive forward valve (when the pump is off fuel will not flow to the engine as it can siphon with the high C34 tank.)

My comment on the Posi was meant to be that a small pump can be used to replace a large round pump, i.e., one does not necessarily need to use a GoldFlo.  I just reworded it -- hopefully less confusing.

[Ron Hill]

Aaron : FYI, I ran my M25XP engine for over a year (200hrs?) as gravity feed with the electric lift pump connected to the blower switch.!!  I did that so if I turned on the blower and the RPM were to increase - it was time to change the Racor.  That never happened.  The M25XP engine ran great on just gravity flow!!

A few thoughts

[Sailing Amok]

Well, made it down to the boat and did some troubleshooting.
Removed the raw water pump, and installed the camshaft sleeve as per the Service bulletin. It hadn't been done, despite the PO having the service bulletin in his files. The pump itself feels fine. Put things back together and did some listening with the mechanics stethoscope. The Rice Crispies sound did not present itself, but the good old hiss did. It definitely was most prominent in the points I've marked in red in this photo. I guess this is starting to look like a crankshaft bearing failure? I cant find any info on failed crankshafts on this engine, on this forum or even Google. Seems strange that such a rare thing would happen on a well maintained engine with minimal hours. But it would correlate to the alternator failure I suppose. I haven't yet determined if the bearing is serviceable without removal of the engine from the boat or a full tear down. Could this be anything else?

[KWKloeber]

Where you are indicating I'd first suspect either an idler gear or oil pump noise.  I don't know what would HISS, but I suppose that is in the ear of the beholder.  I couldn't hear the noise that you describe.