Miserable experience with drum windlass - Questions on new windlass

[pbyrne]

My lovely wife and I were out in the Kingston area and anchored overnight in one of the recommended bays for first timers like us.

We thought we had a good location, about 15 ft, plenty of room, good leeway for dragging, and perfectly calm weather overnight growing to 10 kts mid morning.

All went well until we tried to retrieve the anchor.  The wind didn't help, but we're a good team, and she drove the boat well while I tried to hand retrieve the anchor.

We brought up a small bush of weeds; so much I couldn't get the anchor fully onto the bow roller before cleating it off.

It was a very close thing, as I almost wasn't able to get the chain, anchor, and probably 15lbs of weeds on board. For this area I'm being told there are a LOT of weeds. 

I did what I could to pause, cleat the rode/chain off and clear the weeds as I brought it in but the sheer weight of it all and fighting the winds meant this was the absolute worst experience anchoring the boat we've ever had, and I think it's a safety issue.

The drum windlass that came with the boat, won't work for us.  IMHO, it's a ridiculously unsafe system for a boat this size, to handle any conditions.  If you don't have weeds, like we didn't in the past its workable I guess.  We also have a 35lbs Mantus, 5/16 chain which I acknowledge adds weight.

I've been reading over the threads https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9609.30.html and https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11188.msg88997.html#msg88997.

I have a few questions:

1 - is it the VW10-8 or RC that is a better choice?
2 - Is this a direct replacement wiring wise.  I noted some people up rated the wiring. (I'm trying to keep this simple)
3 - It looks like a spacer is needed as per Noah https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11188.msg88997.html#msg88997.  Any suggestion on how to make one or deal with the offset differently?  I could probably get something 3D printed locally if I knew the spec.
4 - Up/Down functionality.  I would prefer a hand held wired in the locker as a Primary, wireless as a secondary.  Any suggestions on what would work for a wired, and wireless setup?
5 -Breaker changes?

Bottom line is I need the machinery to retrieve the anchor and I manage it.  It's physically demanding, and IMHO unsafe so this is something I need to address.

[Breakin Away]

I have no specific reason to think these other windlasses won't work for you, but be sure to verify all measurements on your own boat. Things that will fit on the MkI and Mk1.5 boats may not fit the same in the MkII anchor locker. This is a precaution that many of us MkII owners have to take for much of the advice offered by other C34 owners here and on Facebook.

FWIW, my boat has a very short chain that makes it easy to haul in by hand. I also have a Mantus 35 lb anchor. I used to keep a few wraps of Gorilla tape (very heavy duct tape) around my capstan to allow for cranking in the chain without damaging the chrome. I'd have to replace it every 3 or 4 uses. You might consider that.

I have also gotten rid of the thimble and shackle and instead spliced the nylon rode directly to the chain. That allows it to pass through both the roller and (if necessary) around the capstan.

More recently, my normal procedure in calm conditions and soft mud bottoms is 1) haul in nylon rode manually to get as close to 1:1 scope as possible 2) go eat breakfast while the anchor loosens up (with anchor alarm on and/or watching the horizon for drift) 3) go forward and break the anchor free using the windlass and continue cranking the anchor until chain reaches the capstan 4) pull chain manually until anchor is at the surface 5) manually pull the anchor up and drop down repeatedly until most mud has dropped off the scoop (often done while my wife slowly motors the boat out of the anchorage) and 6) haul in the last bit of chain by hand. This method takes advantage of the lighter nylon rode, and minimizes our dependence on the windlass, so that we've practiced for the day when it ultimately fails.

If I'm in a heavier wind, I either use the windlass for step 1 or have my wife drive the boat toward the anchor while I pull it in manually.

Some people need a lot of chain, especially if anchoring in rocky areas where nylon rode could chafe, but I only anchor in soft Chesapeake mud. Fortunately I've never had to crank in a whole bunch of weeds. I can imagine how that is frustrating and frightening.

[pbyrne]

I have no specific reason to think these other windlasses won't work for you, but be sure to verify all measurements on your own boat. Things that will fit on the MkI and Mk1.5 boats may not fit the same in the MkII anchor locker. This is a precaution that many of us MkII owners have to take for much of the advice offered by other C34 owners here and on Facebook.

FWIW, my boat has a very short chain that makes it easy to haul in by hand. I also have a Mantus 35 lb anchor. I used to keep a few wraps of Gorilla tape (very heavy duct tape) around my capstan to allow for cranking in the chain without damaging the chrome. I'd have to replace it every 3 or 4 uses. You might consider that.

I have also gotten rid of the thimble and shackle and instead spliced the nylon rode directly to the chain. That allows it to pass through both the roller and (if necessary) around the capstan.

More recently, my normal procedure in calm conditions and soft mud bottoms is 1) haul in nylon rode manually to get as close to 1:1 scope as possible 2) go eat breakfast while the anchor loosens up (with anchor alarm on and/or watching the horizon for drift) 3) go forward and break the anchor free using the windlass and continue cranking the anchor until chain reaches the capstan 4) pull chain manually until anchor is at the surface 5) manually pull the anchor up and drop down repeatedly until most mud has dropped off the scoop (often done while my wife slowly motors the boat out of the anchorage) and 6) haul in the last bit of chain by hand. This method takes advantage of the lighter nylon rode, and minimizes our dependence on the windlass, so that we've practiced for the day when it ultimately fails.

If I'm in a heavier wind, I either use the windlass for step 1 or have my wife drive the boat toward the anchor while I pull it in manually.

Some people need a lot of chain, especially if anchoring in rocky areas where nylon rode could chafe, but I only anchor in soft Chesapeake mud. Fortunately I've never had to crank in a whole bunch of weeds. I can imagine how that is frustrating and frightening.

Your calm weather process is exactly what we've been doing, prior to moving to the weed zone.  I did wrap the capstan with a self amalgating tape. It was in the chandlery, black, wide and can be used to wrap hoses in a pinch etc.  Seemed tougher than Gorilla tape.  The 8 plait worked okay, but when we got to lifting the anchor and the weed bush the chain destroyed it.  Maybe Gorilla tape being adhesive would have at least kept the tape in place.

The issue is being able to lift the anchor/chain and a massive lump of weeds, and hold it all one handed while you secure the chain with a hook/snubber to clear it; in wind!  It's a 2 handed job just heaving the chain...

The 8 plait is spliced to the chain as you mentioned.  That did work well. My chain to anchor shackle got stuck in the bow roller, and I've got a Mantus shackle on order which has a short bolt instead of a pin proturding, and I've switched the bail bolts to bolt with a low rounded profile head as well.  If that doesn't work I'm going to probably buy the Mantus swivel or something similar that is a narrow profile.  I can't help but wonder if the bow roller shouldn't have been a bit wider.

Yeah it was getting pretty desperate...I was almost at reanchoring and evaluating options to wait out the wind.

[Ron Hill]

pby : Here is how I retrieve my 33 lb Bruce with 50 ft of chain. 

I have my wife move the boat very slowly forward as I take in the slack rode.  When I'm directly over the anchor and stopped I cleat off the rode. Then I have her go in reverse to break out the anchor (you can also break it out by going forward). With the anchor free (boat slowed to just floating) I retrieve the anchor with the windlass. 

I've pulled up all kinds of surprises. Water logged 2 x 10s 8ft long and the worst was a 25 -30 ft piece of 2 inch galvanized pipe!!  That was one hell of a break out because the pipe bent and was around the anchor shank!!  I'll never forget that one!!!   

The only weight for the windlass that you have is the length of chain to the anchor, the anchor weight and 15 lbs of weeds. Any windless gypsy or drum should easily lift that weight!! Once the anchor is off the bottom (& coming up)  the person at the helm can maneuver the boat - if needed. 

The difference between retrieving with a drum (vrs. a gypsy) is that you may? have to "self tail" the rode.

A few thoughts

[Jim Hardesty]

This is what Shamrock has, I really like it.  I disconnect the chain and use the drum with spare halyard to ascend the mast, pile up 10 feet of rode into the anchor locker and use the drum and halyard to lift dinghy to deck and many other uses.  It's a Maxwell freedom series, believe chain wheel, drum or both were options.  You may be able to contact Maxwell and have your existing windless modified. 
Jim

The anchor locker lid has a hole in it when the lid is closed the drum is above the lid.

[Breakin Away]

This is what Shamrock has, I really like it.  I disconnect the chain and use the drum with spare halyard to ascend the mast, pile up 10 feet of rode into the anchor locker and use the drum and halyard to lift dinghy to deck and many other uses.  It's a Maxwell freedom series, believe chain wheel, drum or both were options.  You may be able to contact Maxwell and have your existing windless modified. 
Jim

The anchor locker lid has a hole in it when the lid is closed the drum is above the lid.

Jim,

Your anchor locker design is totally different from mine. Pretty surprising for a boat that's the same model year, and only 35 hulls later. Are you the original owner? If so, did you request a special upgrade for your windlass, or did Catalina make a running design change?

My locker hinges are on the port side, latch on starboard, and my water tank opening is to port, but under the hatch. My Maxwell 500 windlass with capstan is horizontally mounted on the starboard side with a single foot switch (up only). I'll try to get a picture of it, but right now I'm 800 miles away.

I'm curious what configuration pbyrne has on his boat. If it's the same Maxwell 500 as mine, it (and the chain gypsy upgrade option) have long since been discontinued. I've read about many people searching for the gypsy upgrade unsuccessfully. (I probably read it here, but maybe on another forum.) Never hurts to try to find one, though.

[pbyrne]

Jim,

Your anchor locker design is totally different from mine. Pretty surprising for a boat that's the same model year, and only 35 hulls later. Are you the original owner? If so, did you request a special upgrade for your windlass, or did Catalina make a running design change?

My locker hinges are on the port side, latch on starboard, and my water tank opening is to port, but under the hatch. My Maxwell 500 windlass with capstan is horizontally mounted on the starboard side with a single foot switch (up only). I'll try to get a picture of it, but right now I'm 800 miles away.

I'm curious what configuration pbyrne has on his boat. If it's the same Maxwell 500 as mine, it (and the chain gypsy upgrade option) have long since been discontinued. I've read about many people searching for the gypsy upgrade unsuccessfully. (I probably read it here, but maybe on another forum.) Never hurts to try to find one, though.

Wonder no more! Sorry, bit dirty, I was cleaning up that day.  Mine is exactly as you describe and Jim's is the superior solution.  Clearly Catalina knew of the issues as that is a significant change in implementation.  Fibreglass, deck fittings, windlass.  Everything...

[Jim Hardesty]

Your anchor locker design is totally different from mine. Pretty surprising for a boat that's the same model year, and only 35 hulls later. Are you the original owner?

I'm not the original owner.  But I know him.  The windless is what the factory supplied at the time with only the up switch.  Maxwell had a Catalina owners deal to add a down switch that he did.  It's worked flawlessly but think it's due for a new pressure arm, sometimes I need to keep tension on the rope to get it to bite.  Does anyone know if I'm correct?
Also for the big seaweed balls that happens, I now carry a manchette to chop with.  A few bucks from Harbor Freight.  Often just anchor up and down in the water will clear a lot of the seaweed or mud.  Easy to do when it's just toe switches.
Jim

[pbyrne]

Excellent discussion, however could I kindly point back to my original list of questions?  There's no where I trust more than the fine folks here.

[Sailing Amok]

My lovely wife and I were out in the Kingston area and anchored overnight in one of the recommended bays for first timers like us.

Kerr Bay by chance? We spent our first season with Coral Wave living aboard in the Kingston area. The weeds in that region are horrendous. One trick we heard from a few boaters in the area is to have a bread knife attached to a boat hook. You use it to saw off the weed balls as you haul the anchor up. Now on frigid Lake Superior weeds are never an issue. We do occasionally haul up entire trees though 

[waughoo]

To get back to your original questions, there are no simple answers beyond what you've identified already.  Things like a windlass install are custom on boats and thus getting into the project is the only way to come up with the answers to the questions.  As for the shim, there is likely a template in the box you could use to build your 3D model from and the slice it accordingly at the angle you determined during fitment. 

[Ron Hill]

pby : With the way your windlass is installed , I believe that you need to self tail the anchor rode.  The first thing that I'd change is to get rid of that 3 strand as it's tooo stiff to handle. 

As others have mentioned - when I installed my windlass I listened to the wrong guy and only installed an "up" toe switch. You definitely also need a down switch.

The "bread knife " on a boat hook sound like a great idea if you in a weedy anchorage!!

A few thoughts

[pbyrne]

My lovely wife and I were out in the Kingston area and anchored overnight in one of the recommended bays for first timers like us.

Kerr Bay by chance? We spent our first season with Coral Wave living aboard in the Kingston area. The weeds in that region are horrendous. One trick we heard from a few boaters in the area is to have a bread knife attached to a boat hook. You use it to saw off the weed balls as you haul the anchor up. Now on frigid Lake Superior weeds are never an issue. We do occasionally haul up entire trees though 

Why yes it was.  The fact you guessed that bay with virtually no information makes me think that the people that recommended going there did so as a hazing...  Literally everyone was 'go to Kerr Bay, it's lovely in Kerr Bay, you'll love Kerr Bay'... I thought we were friends!

I have one of these for my tree, I'm bringing it next time.  Bread knife ha!

I'm now looking for anchorages with at least 20 ft (hopefully no sunlight down that far), or it's day trips, or marinas.  I have no desire to repeat that experience, but I will make some changes to how I retrieve the anchor by hand until I sort out the windlass.

[pbyrne]

To get back to your original questions, there are no simple answers beyond what you've identified already.  Things like a windlass install are custom on boats and thus getting into the project is the only way to come up with the answers to the questions.  As for the shim, there is likely a template in the box you could use to build your 3D model from and the slice it accordingly at the angle you determined during fitment.

Agreed.  However I would appreciate some general guidance on wire sizing or equipment that people have used and recommend.  Better than simply guessing!

[waughoo]

All those things you want answers to will be specific to your boat and its installation.  That was what I was trying to get at.  I will try and focus that thought a bit and maybe that will help you start your planning.

The wire size will be determined by how many amps the motor is and how far away the wiring run is from the power source.  When I do those calculations for an install, I use the blue seas chart that is available with a quick Google search.

The last wireless remote I installed was a Quick brand.  It was marine dedicated and had a REALLY nice hand held that floats.  They also sell a wired version. If you go with a wireless remote, I would probably suggest the foot switches as the back up vs another remote that is wired.  Here is a link to the Quick site's remote.

https://www.quickusastore.com/boat-supply/accessories/wireless-remotes-and-receivers/rrc-wireless-remote-control/

  As for vw10-8 vs RC, you mentioned you were trying to keep it simple.  The RC HAS to be mounted on a horizontal plane (on deck).  The VW can be mounted vertically or horizontally which I believe is how yours is currently mounted inside the locker.  To keep it simple, I'd go with the VW, otherwise, you'll be glassing in a platform etc just to mount it.

Hopefully this helps some.  An installation of a windlass, even to replace an existing, is exceptionally custom.  You'll need to start picking components and then figuring out the ancillary parts and pieces you'll need to complete that install.