Rudder Movement

[pbyrne]

I've gone through the forum, and read a number of the 'rudder' posts, (no pun intended), and I didn't see anything that mentioned what I'm seeing.

I can move the rudder, externally, on the hard, side to side what seems like an excessive and unnecessary amount.  The movement is not between the rudder shaft, and the bushing, but the bushing and the hull.

Note the rudder has been replaced, due to it being damaged running aground, however I don't have the exact details of what happened.

Here is a video that shows what I'm talking about.  Sorry, it's not the best, but you can see what I'm talking about if you watch closely at the bushing and hull point at the top of the rudder.

Any thoughts on this? It doesn't seem right to me.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JJNICSQrCUo

[Ron Hill]

pby : It looks to me like the SS rudder column is moving (Laterally) inside the PVC pipe that goes thru the hull up to the emergency tiller connection.  I believe that there are numerous posts on that fix.  I not that familiar with that fix for a walk thru transom, but with the standard transom it involved mylar strips to fill that void.  The white nylon bushing is to take up Vertical space!!.  Hope this helps?

A thought

[pbyrne]

I'm not clear on the entire construction of the rudder system, and I'm not near the boat to check at the moment, however, it looked to me that the bushing and rudder post are moving together, in the hull.

I didn't see any movement between the stainless steel rudder shaft, and the bushing itself.

I did read some of the posts talkng about filament, and as you mentioned they say to insert between the SS shaft and bushing.  But, I didn't read anything that shows the bushing moving, in the hull.

[Jim Hardesty]

The movement is not between the rudder shaft, and the bushing, but the bushing and the hull.

I've looked at your video.  It looks to me like what you're calling a bushing is what I call a spacer.  It's more like a plastic washer that prevents the rudder from rubbing against the hull.  On Shamrock it spins easily on the shaft, yours may be painted or just stuck a bit.  I'm not sure how much play is too much.  Certainly if you feel vibrations when sailing.  I think the fix is mylar shims as Ron has said.
Jim

[Holger Dieske]

... I also think what moves is this nylon ring and not the GRP tube in which the rudder shaft is located.
Holger

[Jim Fitch]

That's definitely the washer/spacer that is moving with the shaft (Catalina Direct part T1917).  The new ones are black.  To repair the wiggle, Catalina direct also sells a kit (Catalina Direct part Z5285).  I attached the Catalina drawing for the rudder support.  It doesn't show the washers.  I'm not sure yours moves any more than mine does.  I'd have to go give it a wiggle.

Jim

[Jim Fitch]

You may also want to open the emergency tiller plate behind the wheel and see what's going on there.  Several of us didn't have the upper rudder bearing installed on our "MK1.5" hulls.  The shaft/post rubbing with the fiberglass deck enlarged the hole a bit and allows a wiggle.  I added one two years ago because there wasn't really any support at the top of the rudder shaft.  That's Catalina Direct part A8292, if you don't have one.

Jim

[pbyrne]

Thank you to all.

I'll open the emergency tiller cover and take a look.  A few more questions.

-Does this look like the 'new bearing' epoxy solution is the, uh, solution
-Best way to drop the rudder and any gotcha's to watch for
-Correct steering / quadrant tension
-Are the small cracks in the gel coat something to investigate further?  The rudder was replaced due to impact.

[Jim Fitch]

Before you do anything, I'd find a way to get down inside the boat and have someone do the rudder wiggle for you just to make sure the rudder tube isn't moving inside and to see what's going on with the top rudder bearing (which is just a shorter piece of rudder tube).  That way you can also look to see if there's any cracking around the rudder tube inside the hull.  I assume everything is solid and your gel coat cracks are just gel coat cracks but you could grind the biggest crack down a little to make sure it ends when the fiberglass starts.

I checked mine and I have a little side to side wiggle but your wiggle looks bigger.  I didn't feel I needed to do anything about that so I haven't tried Catalina Directs solution or the mylar sheet solution.  Both those solutions make sense to me.  If you can get a sheet of mylar in there, that sounds easier and less messy but it may not last as long.  I had dropped my rudder to repair the rudder and that's when I found my big issue of the missing top bearing.  Adding the top bearing cut down the wiggle I had.  There wasn't much of anything holding the top of the rudder shaft in place so my issue was different than yours.

The only difficult part of dropping the rudder for me was the quadrant bolts were so jammed in the quadrant with salt and corrosion that they didn't want to come out.  I bent the bolts and I think I even broke one doing it and the PB Blaster couldn't get in.  I eventually worked them out with leverage and maybe my impact gun.  I covered the new bolts with ridiculous amounts of Never Seize when I put the quadrant back on so that couldn't happen again.

Everything else was easy.  I had to dig a hole in the ground to drop it all the way out but my boat was over dirt so it was easy enough to dig a little trough for the rudder to drop into.  I did it all myself without help by putting boards across the trough I dug so the rudder couldn't drop when I released it inside.  It is pretty heavy but I managed to carry it after I removed it.

I think Edson says we're supposed to replace all those cables every 10 years and mine were 30 years old so I actually replaced all that while I had everything apart.  I think those instructions gave details on tensioning the cables.  You certainly don't want them rod tight and you should be able to deflect the long part of the free cable a little by hand.  The idea is just to get rid of any slack so the rudder can't turn unless you turn the wheel.

The other thing I did while the rudder was out was fill the inside of the rudder shaft with foam (as Ron and others have suggested) to keep out water.  Water freezing inside the bottom of the rudder tube is what caused my rudder damage.  I used some two part foam and it expanded way more than I expected, making a mess.  If I had to do that again, I'd do a couple of small pours down the shaft instead of one big pour.

I also replaced the packing in the packing glad while everything was apart.

I did all this 3 years ago so I may be missing something but everything was straightforward and I don't remember any big issues except the bolts.  Of course, all that was after removing the back wall of the aft cabin and pulling out the rear water tank to get access.  I have the 1990 MK1.5 and there's no good access to work back there without removing the tank.  Maybe your newer boat has better access?

Jim

[pbyrne]

Thank you Jim, very helpful.  I removed the emergency cover, and attached are what I found.  A bit manky, but otherwise looks sound to me.

I had my lovely wife wiggle the rudder and I didn't really see any movement. It seems to be at the rudder to hull bottom that it moves.

I did take a look at a couple of neighbouring 34's and they seemed to also have a bit of the same wiggle to varying degrees.  They are all about the same age.

Unfortunately the MKII is the same for access.  Panel out (after finding the most evil screw ever on the backside) and tank out for full access.

I hadn't thought about the packing.  Hmmm.....  Maybe it's time to try and get into the lazarette and see what I can see...

Before you do anything, I'd find a way to get down inside the boat and have someone do the rudder wiggle for you just to make sure the rudder tube isn't moving inside and to see what's going on with the top rudder bearing (which is just a shorter piece of rudder tube).  That way you can also look to see if there's any cracking around the rudder tube inside the hull.  I assume everything is solid and your gel coat cracks are just gel coat cracks but you could grind the biggest crack down a little to make sure it ends when the fiberglass starts.

I checked mine and I have a little side to side wiggle but your wiggle looks bigger.  I didn't feel I needed to do anything about that so I haven't tried Catalina Directs solution or the mylar sheet solution.  Both those solutions make sense to me.  If you can get a sheet of mylar in there, that sounds easier and less messy but it may not last as long.  I had dropped my rudder to repair the rudder and that's when I found my big issue of the missing top bearing.  Adding the top bearing cut down the wiggle I had.  There wasn't much of anything holding the top of the rudder shaft in place so my issue was different than yours.

The only difficult part of dropping the rudder for me was the quadrant bolts were so jammed in the quadrant with salt and corrosion that they didn't want to come out.  I bent the bolts and I think I even broke one doing it and the PB Blaster couldn't get in.  I eventually worked them out with leverage and maybe my impact gun.  I covered the new bolts with ridiculous amounts of Never Seize when I put the quadrant back on so that couldn't happen again.

Everything else was easy.  I had to dig a hole in the ground to drop it all the way out but my boat was over dirt so it was easy enough to dig a little trough for the rudder to drop into.  I did it all myself without help by putting boards across the trough I dug so the rudder couldn't drop when I released it inside.  It is pretty heavy but I managed to carry it after I removed it.

I think Edson says we're supposed to replace all those cables every 10 years and mine were 30 years old so I actually replaced all that while I had everything apart.  I think those instructions gave details on tensioning the cables.  You certainly don't want them rod tight and you should be able to deflect the long part of the free cable a little by hand.  The idea is just to get rid of any slack so the rudder can't turn unless you turn the wheel.

The other thing I did while the rudder was out was fill the inside of the rudder shaft with foam (as Ron and others have suggested) to keep out water.  Water freezing inside the bottom of the rudder tube is what caused my rudder damage.  I used some two part foam and it expanded way more than I expected, making a mess.  If I had to do that again, I'd do a couple of small pours down the shaft instead of one big pour.

I also replaced the packing in the packing glad while everything was apart.

I did all this 3 years ago so I may be missing something but everything was straightforward and I don't remember any big issues except the bolts.  Of course, all that was after removing the back wall of the aft cabin and pulling out the rear water tank to get access.  I have the 1990 MK1.5 and there's no good access to work back there without removing the tank.  Maybe your newer boat has better access?

Jim

[Jim Fitch]

Now that I see your picture, I remember I replaced the washer/spacer that the fitting on top of the rudder shaft swivels on (Catalina Direct part T1917).  It was worn a bit.  You might want to order one of those before you start the project so you aren't waiting on it if you decide to replace it.

Good luck and let us know what you decided to do.

Jim