Glow Plug Question

[Jim Hardesty]

Jim, FYI my M25 has no interest in firing up unless it gets some glow plug lovin' first.

I don't want to add fuel to this heated debate.  But, After sitting for a couple of days, temp in the 60s, Shamrock started up in less than 2 seconds.  That's one Mississippi, two Missi..started.  I'm just saying, perhaps some engines will start just fine without heating the glow plugs except in cold weather.  If more cranking would be required would begin using the glow plugs.
Your Boat Your Choice.
Jim

[KWKloeber]

say someone wanted to add the solenoid to the engine (for whichever reason), but also wanted to regulate the voltage from the solenoid down to 10.5v for the plugs.  any recommendations on a component to add?

md

One would need to at least put a power resistor in the circuit that would take say, 2 volts off the supply (which is what Kubota did with a "preheat indicator" and a preheat timer on these engines in tractors -- which was essentially a  resistor coil that glowed to indicate that the preheat was energized while it also reduced the voltage. 

But that's not a voltage regulator (if the btty voltage varied.)

BUT, I can't fathom why someone would want to do that - raise the supply voltage only to then drop the voltage by introducing another component that could fail. 

It's the same voltage plug, OEM or replacement -- that's why Kubota uses the resistance coil!! 

I'll say it again, with the relatively few preheats on our engines, the V isn't that big a deal.  It's the fact that we should keep things as simple as possible to do the job needed.  We don't need a solution in search of a problem that isn't a problem.

[KWKloeber]

my NEW M25XPB engine

Ron

I tend to use the term convoluted, but GOOFY is much better.

Do you rip out the XPB solenoid and that little 10a non-compliant circuit breaker and the whole shebang when you rewired? 

Did you trash the extension oil hose fo the 2=terminal N/O switch and put the 1 terminal N/C oil switch right on the block?

[Indian Falls]

Gentlemen! A very entertaining thread.  1 question to all:
I hold my glo button until the engine starts.  Pretty much the same time you'd let go the start key. I only glo for about 5 or 6 seconds.  Engine starts right up in about 2-4 seconds.  Glo current is about 18 to 20 amps plus cranking amps 100?.  Did this heretofore bad habit ruin my four 2 year old Duracell 6v GC batteries?

Notes: Samlex 3 stage charger, Isotherm water cooled reefer, no inverter, no other loads when the boat is on shore power for the week.  I always crank the engine on ALL.  No dedicated start battery.  Suddenly this season the batteries have been losing water... last check was 1 gallon in a week.  Bought a new Samlex charger, it as well as the old one are charging at 10-12 amps continuously, used to settle in a 1-3amps.  The old one is a suspect due to an overvoltage of shore power which damaged a lot of peoples equipment at the club 2 years ago.  Recently I've had to use the compression release to get started.

[Ron Hill]

Ron
I tend to use the term convoluted, but GOOFY is much better.
Do you rip out the XPB solenoid and that little 10a non-compliant circuit breaker and the whole shebang when you rewired?
Did you trash the extension oil hose fo the 2=terminal N/O switch and put the 1 terminal N/C oil switch right on the block?
[/quote]

Ken : You Bech'um !!  I removed the entire wiring harness and started over!!  I even replumbed the fuel from the round Facuet fuel pump by passing the square one on the engine!!

The single pole oil sending switch went directly into the engine.  I also added a small positive terminal block - as the starter solenoid threaded pole was too short and looked very flimsy coming out of that Bakelite fitting!!

This then made the engine fit the electrical wiring and fuel plumbing already installed on the boat!   Easily done and could also easily be done on the 4cylinder M35BC engine.  Made things MUCH simpler!!!   

A few thoughts

[scgunner]

Dan,

Your starting procedure didn't ruin your batteries. I've been starting basically the same way for 32 years except I hold the glow plugs button much longer, around 20 to 25 seconds. However, now because of this thread(as you can read)I release the glow plug button before I crank the motor, it seems to be easier on the batteries.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : It's not only easier on the batteries - it is much easier (more current available) to the STARTER!!!

A thought

[scgunner]

True dat!

[Noah]

I don't have a glow plug button. Glow plug function is part of my key. Turn spring loaded key all the way to right, hold 5-10 sec. to heat plugs, then release key and push start button. Away she goes.

https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-38/electrical/breakers-switches/ignition-switch-3-position-plastic-body/?SearchResults=1

[Ron Hill]

Noah : FYI, In the early C34s 1986 & 1987 the engine instrument panel had 2 push buttons. One for the starter and one for the glow plugs.

Starting with the 1988 C34 production (and subsequent MK Is thru 1994) the engine instrument panel changed and the glow plug button was eliminate.  The glow plug function was incorporated in the spring loaded position of the key switch.  Hold ON (to the right - clockwise) the glow plugs stay ON.  Release the key switch (so it goes back to just the "key ON" position) the glow plugs are turned OFF.

For the M35A engine (Option MK I) & the MKII (M35BC engine) the functioning of the spring loaded key switch position - this is a whole new ball game!!

A thought

[Stu Jackson]

Noah : FYI, In the early C34s 1986 & 1987 the engine instrument panel had 2 push buttons. One for the starter and one for the glow plugs.

Starting with the 1988 C34 production (and subsequent) the engine instrument panel changed and the glow plug button was eliminate.  The glow plug function was incorporated in the spring loaded position of the key switch.

A thought

IIRC, it might have been when they did this they also changed the wiring so that the fuel pump only comes on when the glow plugs are energized, and the pump turns off when the plug position in the key switch goes to "on", and pump restarts when the oil pressure is "made."  For another POV, the sequence could have been done when they started installing the M25XP.  I always thought it was the engine switch which resulted in the elimination of the glow pug button and to the key switch, rather than just a change in the panel ; and if it was the panel change "only" whether or not that alone changed the wiring.

It would be helpful for those who have those boats (early M25XPs and late M25s - probably in the late 200 to 400 hull numbers)  to assure themselves of what they have and how it works.

Could be I'm just getting into minutia again about the when & why of the wiring change.  Wouldn't be the first time!   

The sequencing of the fuel pump is discussed in Reply #30 in Critical Upgrades.

[KWKloeber]

According to Seaward, the change in the panels, switches -- was CTY responding to customers' complaints about the starting sequence. 

We 30-ers had a third configuration (in this sequence):

     * pre-1986-ish: key ON + momentary toggle switch preheat + key start
     * 1986-ish: key ON + PB switch preheat + PB switch start
     * 1988-ish: Key ON + key preheat + PB start

The glow plug and fuel pump abomination wasn't tied to the panel configuration -- it happened when Westerbeke bought Universal.   In other words, the panel configuration used did not depend on the engine and wiring that was installed -- and vice vesa.  Any panel config could be used with any engine that was installed.

After buying Universal, Wb replaced the "Universal" wiring schematic, with its longtime-used "Westerbeke" wiring schematic (Wb *always* had the fuel pump shut off on its engines.) 
This was introduced on the "A" series (i.e., XPA, 35A) and of course Wb uses it on the "B" series.  The "A" engines are essentially identical to the predecessors, with the exception of the wiring schematic (and of course paint color.)