Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?

[Stu Jackson]

I am wondering why you didn't remove the rails so you could at least countersink both the deck and rails?  Or go the whole route and epoxy seal the fastener thru holes?

Because I didn't want to, nor do I think I needed to.  The length and curve of the handrails make it difficult, especially for one worker (i.e., ME ) to put them back in the holes.  I did the removal on our C25 years ago and swore I'd never do it again.

Are you using a stainless anti-seize such as Locktite C5-A to prevent the bolts/nuts from galling again?

You betcha.  Lanocote. I use it in many applications.  I had to remove two hoses yesterday from my rw pump (I'll be replacing the seals) and they came off rather easily because I'd slathered Lanocote inside the ends of the hoses.  It works on many different items: hoses, threads...  I like it better than Locktite, because it is not "runny."

Not that I am saying one way or the other, just throwing out for general info how some C30 guys have dealt with rails:

1) Epoxied-in hanger bolts (including in the screw positions)
or
2) Epoxied-in bolts (with a deformed head so that they can't slip)

No more bungs, no more slipping bolts .........  no more teacher's dirty looks.

Sure, there are many different ways to deal with this issue.  The butyl tape around the bolts and screws will keep the water out.  There 's no need to "seal" under the flats of the rail against the deck because there are no deck penetrations there.

I've read about all the many different ways to rebed handrails.  I have read every Mainsheet magazine from 1987 on, since my PO gave me all his back copies in 1998.

Your My boat, your my choice. 

[KWKloeber]

Stu

Ya, I know about the bend, I did mine single handedly but seems not as much an issue lining up and insert as you're saying you had.  Maybe my rails had more of a "pre-bend" in them so it took only a little persuasion to line up/reinsert the bolts.  Luckily I didn't have to de-bung at all, all my bolts stayed put and they easily de-nutted below.

I'll hafta try Lanacote, never saw it around.  Locktite C5-A is a fairly heavy paste, like plumbers pipe dope.

kk

[J_Sail]

I can't resist tossing in my two cents.  Lanocote is an old-school lanolin grease that works by a combination of preventing corrosion (by sealing out moisture) and providing lubrication when you need to remove fasteners. For many applications, that is probably sufficient. A seized stainless-to-stainless nut-bolt situation, though, commonly isnt due to corrosion, but to "galling" where fasteners of similar hardness effectively get spot welded by the micro transfer of metal from one surface to the other under the intense microscopic pressure between the threads. 

The best protection for that is the high-shear strength of anti-seize compounds. Such compounds often use molybdenum grease for shear strength (so that the grease maintains an intact layer between the surfaces) and optionally include tiny particles of a soft metal that will provide an extra layer between surfaces that can be broken free by reasonable torque. The addition of powered PTFE can provide some anti-seize effect much like metal powder.

For a lot of applications, you will find success in almost any grease. For high-load stainless-to-stainless, you are best off using a proper anti-seize compound. The specific metal additive is not nearly as important as it seems, so don't get too worried about the copper in an anti-seize worsening galvanic corrosion. But if that worries you, use one with aluminum. The anti-seize manufacturers offer the different formulas, primarily due to issues unique to high-temperature performance (engine exhaust manifold bolts or spark plugs to be installed and left for 10 years) or specialized applications that might be sensitive to chemical contamination.

Tef-gel is a nice product that combines corrosion protection with decent anti-seize properties, so is very popular on boats. Not as effective on stainless-to-stainless galling as a speciality anti-seize, but probably good enough to solve most problems, where bolts are not torqued that tight to start with, and it provides long-lasting anti-corrosion protection on fittings exposed to saltwater.

More on galling:
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/Thread-galling.aspx

[J_Sail]

Another thought - since galling is typically a problem only when the bolt and nut are the same material, you could substitute silicon bronze for one of the two. Since the juncture is mostly dry, galvanic corrosion shouldn't be a big problem. 

Just food for thought.

G'night
Jeremy

[Jim Hardesty]

I can't resist tossing in my two cents.

And here is my two cents.  Need to use caution with stainless steel fittings.  Any burrs or deformed threads will gull up and ruin the nut and bolt.  This is from a couple of decades in a company doing a lot of work with stainless quick disconnect fittings.  Also,  I often use old fashioned pipe thread compound (plumbing stuff).  Easy removing or retightening, never had any vibrate loose and it seals the threads.  This is from decades of off road motorcycle racing. (a tip from someone older than me)

Jim

[KWKloeber]

I can't resist tossing in my two cents.

Here's 0.06 (0.02 x 3) from the Henkel (aka Locktite) techs.  I had asked them the best anti-seize for three applications:

A)  stainless threads (e.g., bolt to nut, etc.)

....the best for stainless are LB 8009 (Heavy Duty Anti-Seize) and LB 8023 (Marine Grade Anti-Seize). 

B)  engine senders (e.g., temp gauge sender, thermostat cap bolts) to maintain the best electrical conductivity.

....The most conductive of the anti-seize products is the LB 8504 (Graphite 50 Anti-Seize.) 

C)  To minimize potential galvanic corrosion.

The LB 8023 (Marine Grade) is both one of the best for stainless, and will prevent galvanic corrosion. 

The data sheets are attached.

As others said, anything is better than nothing. SuperLube PTFE gel is another lube that would also help impart a boundary layer on threads to reduce the chance of galling.

For senders, I have always recommended copper content anti-seize -- I have a couple guys who have inaccurate (low reading) temp gauges because of (I believe) a poor ground thru the T-stat cap bolts.  I suggested they clean up and anti-seize the bolts.  I even offered to send them free my jumper to bond the temp sender.  Nah, it's too much trouble, I'll live with it.    (the ultimate MBMC??)


kk

[J_Sail]

I would tend to favor the LB 8023 for exterior marine use due to resistance to wash-out.

I would not worry about the electrical conductivity of anti-seize compounds. The thread interface results in intimate metal to metal contact at sufficient points to provide excellent conductivity for sensors. Even wrapping threads with PTFE plumbers tape usually doesn't prevent such contact; the microscopic peaks just punch thru. That said, you can still end up with corrosion or other contamination problems between two flat surfaces clamped together, but that's not due to lack of conductivity of the anti-seize compound.

BTW - many supposed "conductive" contact lubes, such as DeOxIt, are not actually conductive; they just produce a thin enough film to allow the metal peaks to punch through.

[J_Sail]

Finally found the perfect nut splitter, one that MaineSail would be proud to own:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Cutting-Head-110-115Mm-AGN-ENE-NSH110115/dp/B00C3IEN7I


My only complaint, is that for $19,909.80, it should really come with free shipping. And it's only the cutting head, not the full tool.

[Stu Jackson]

Finally found the perfect nut splitter, one that MaineSail would be proud to own:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Cutting-Head-110-115Mm-AGN-ENE-NSH110115/dp/B00C3IEN7I


My only complaint, is that for $19,909.80, it should really come with free shipping. And it's only the cutting head, not the full tool.

Aw, shucks.  NOW ya tell me!!!

[Sailing Steve]

Both nuts are now gone.  POP!  POP!   

It was a very good day. 

So glad to see someone benefited from my experience.  Thanks Stu for the feedback on my posting - de ja vu complete with the box wrench snipe!  Did you get the bang and sparks too when the nuts split? Scared the you know what out of me the first time!

We sold our C34 last fall (2017) with the plan of buying a newer boat when I retire in about a year.  The plan was to save the C$12,000 for two years of moorage and put it to the newer boat - Will be a Catalina.  My wife however, booked us on a two week Greece trip this summer, which included an eight day sailboat charter; Only C$10,000 for flights et al, so still have C$2,000 for the next boat LOL.  I'm not a traveler, but it was a trip of a lifetime and the sailing to the various islands was amazing.

Anyway slid back into the C34 website looking for boat mattress suggestions (planing the newer boat details ;-) and thought I'd check for any responses to my posts.

All the best everyone, and L'Abri has maintained her name with the new owners if you happen to see them around the PNW.